The Shaykh’s explanation of the weakness of the hadith narrated by Ibn Abi Shaybah, which Ibn al-Qayyim cited as evidence for his position, because it contains a narrator who is abandoned, namely Yahya ibn
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The Shaykh : We will clarify the answer to what he claimed regarding the narration from Abu Hurayrah that matches the hadith of Ibn Abi Shaybah. Here, one is left wondering. Ibn al-Qayyim says that he was hesitating in his mind, thinking that perhaps the hadith was inverted, and he did not dare to assert this claim with certainty until he found that Ibn Abi Shaybah had narrated the hadith with the wording that was on his mind. He traces its chain, saying: Ibn Abi Shaybah said, Muhammad ibn Fudayl narrated to us from Abdullah ibn Sa'id from his grandfather from Abu Hurayrah. Let us see who this Abdullah ibn Sa'id is. This Abdullah ibn Sa'id has been accused of lying. And following the previous method of abbreviation, one can see what Ibn Hajar said? This Abdullah ibn Sa'id is Abdullah ibn Sa'id ibn Abi Sa'id al-Maqburi, and he is from Madinah. Abdullah ibn Sa'id ibn Abi Sa'id al-Maqburi, Abu 'Abbad al-Laythi, his client, from Madinah, is abandoned. This is what Ibn Hajar says about him: he is abandoned. Let us see, for example, what al-Dhahabi says? He is roughly a contemporary of Ibn al-Qayyim and lived at the same time as him. Abdullah ibn Sa'id — the Shaykh is searching in his books — it is not here for me. Yes, Abdullah ibn Sa'id ibn Abi Sa'id al-Maqburi from his father; they abandoned him. Al-Dhahabi also says this.
So, this hadith which Ibn al-Qayyim relied upon and used to confirm his previous suspicion that perhaps the hadith was inverted, it is better to say that this one is the inverted one, because it was narrated by an abandoned narrator, meaning one of extreme weakness. If he narrated a hadith with no defect whatsoever, his hadith would not be used as evidence and would be cast aside, because he is accused. And it is perhaps advisable that you also verify the seriousness of this man, such that it is not permissible to rely on him in a claim of inversion.
Details of some of the words the Imams said about this man. Abu Qudamah said about Yahya ibn Sa'id: I sat with him in a session and I recognized in him — meaning lying — I sat with him in a session, meaning I attended his session for listening to hadith, and lying became apparent to me from his hadiths. Abu Talib said about Ahmad — Imam Ahmad — he said: his hadith is denounced, his hadith is abandoned. And so said Amr ibn Ali from Ibn Ma'in: weak. The two narrations are of no value. He also says his hadith is not written. And Abu Zur'ah said: his hadith is weak, not ... from him is anything. And al-Bukhari said: they abandoned him. And al-Nasa'i said: he is not trustworthy; Yahya and Abd al-Rahman abandoned him. And al-Hakim Abu Ahmad said: his hadith is gone. And Ibn 'Adi said: most of what he narrates, the weakness is evident upon him. Al-Barqi and Ya'qub ... and Dawud al-Sajji weakened him. And al-Daraqutni said: abandoned, his hadith is gone. And Ibn Hibban said: he used to invert the reports. Look, this is a core argument, meaning, Ibn Hibban says he used to invert the reports until it precedes to the heart that he did it intentionally. So how is it permissible to claim the inversion of a hadith by trustworthy narrators because of the narration of this abandoned man who is accused of lying?
He said: "And it has been narrated from Abu Hurayrah what confirms that and matches the hadith of Wa'il ibn Hujr. Ibn Abi Dawud said: Yusuf ibn 'Adi narrated to us, al-Fadl narrated to us. Perhaps I am in error regarding Muhammad ibn Fudayl from Abdullah ibn Sa'id, the same man here whom your companion just mentioned, from Abdullah ibn Sa'id from his grandfather from Abu Hurayrah, that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to, when he prostrated, begin with his knees before his hands". What is your opinion now? He is arguing with the same weak man here who narrated the first hadith inverted, contradicting the narration of the trustworthy one. He also narrated it inverted from another aspect. The hadith is from his saying (peace be upon him), so he inverted it and made it from his action.
Then he said: "And Ibn Khuzaymah narrated in his Sahih from the hadith of Mus'ab ibn Sa'd from his father, who said: We used to place our hands before our knees, and we were commanded to place our knees before our hands. And on this basis, if the hadith of Abu Hurayrah is preserved", meaning the verbal hadithSunan Abi Dawud 840Sahih (Al-Albani), he said: "If the hadith of Abu Hurayrah is preserved, then it is abrogated. And this is the method of the author of al-Mughni and others. But the hadith has two defects, one of which is". Which hadith? The hadith of Ibn Khuzaymah which he relied upon in claiming the abrogation of the authentic hadith of Abu Hurayrah. He is adding to its condition, saying it has two defects, meaning the hadith with the wording "We used to place our hands before our knees, so we were commanded to place our knees before our hands." He says it has two defects: "One of them is that it is from the narration of Yahya ibn Salama ibn Kuhayl, and he is not one whose hadith is used as evidence. Al-Nasa'i said: he is abandoned. Ibn Hibban said: his hadith is very denounced, not to be used as evidence. And Ibn Ma'in said: he is of no value".
So, if we want to summarize these words, we arrive at the result that this hadith is very weak. The hadith that they used to place their hands before their knees and then were commanded to do the opposite is very weak, by the testimony of the statements of the Imams which the same author transmitted. This is the first defect. The second defect, which is much more important, is that the preserved narration from Mus'ab ibn Sa'd from his father is only about the application (placing hands on knees) and Sa'd's saying "We used to place this, so we were commanded to place our hands on the knees." This is the preserved, authentic hadith, and it is narrated in Sahih Muslim. Ibn Mas'ud (may Allah be pleased with him) used to hold that the one bowing, when he bows, does not place his hands on his knees, but rather he applies his palms together like this, then inserts them between his thighs. This is the application, and he was very strict in adhering to this application.
With Mus'ab, who is the son of Sa'd, he was praying one day next to Abdullah ibn Mas'ud. So when Ibn Mas'ud bowed, he applied his hands, and his companion Mus'ab next to him took hold of his knees. What Ibn Mas'ud did was untie his hands from his knees, apply them for him, and push them, using the Shami expression, between his thighs.
The man knew the status of Ibn Mas'ud, so it overcame his suspicion that this was the Sunnah with which the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) left his Companions, so he responded to him. This was in Kufa, in the town where Ibn Mas'ud was. Then he returned to Madinah, where his father Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas, one of the ten promised Paradise, was. He recounted to him what Ibn Mas'ud did to him. Sa'd (may Allah be pleased with him) said: My brother Ibn Mas'ud spoke the truth. We used to do that, then we were commanded to take hold of the knees. Ibn al-Qayyim says, and this is from his fairness, of course, that the preserved hadith from Mus'ab ibn Sa'd, the Tabi'i, from his father, the Companion, has no relation to the issue of the abrogation of placing the hands during prostration with the knees, but rather this hadith has a relation to the application. So that abandoned narrator of extreme weakness either intentionally inverted this hadith as well, or due to his extreme poor memory, the matter became mixed up for him, and instead of narrating the story of the application, he narrated something that does not exist, which is that they used to place their hands during prostration and were commanded to place the knees before the hands.
So, Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allah have mercy on him) in this.
... the people in it, and he clarified that it is not permissible to rely on it due to the extreme weakness of its narrator first, and because the preserved, authentic hadith is only about the story of the application, not about the story of descending into prostration.
He said: "As for the statement of the author of al-Mughni from Abu Sa'id: 'We used to place our hands before our knees, so we were commanded to place our knees before our hands,' this is, Allah knows best, an error in the name, and it is actually from Sa'd. And it is also an error in the text, as mentioned before, and it is only about the story of the application".
I see that we should suffice with this now, as more than an hour has passed. We will complete the research, if Allah wills, in the next session, and it will hopefully not take much time so that we can devote ourselves to answering the remaining questions or some of them, if Allah wills. Therefore, we conclude this session with this amount, and praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
The Shaykh : Yes.
And let him place his knees before his hands
وليضع ركبتيه قبل يديهSo, this hadith which Ibn al-Qayyim relied upon and used to confirm his previous suspicion that perhaps the hadith was inverted, it is better to say that this one is the inverted one, because it was narrated by an abandoned narrator, meaning one of extreme weakness. If he narrated a hadith with no defect whatsoever, his hadith would not be used as evidence and would be cast aside, because he is accused. And it is perhaps advisable that you also verify the seriousness of this man, such that it is not permissible to rely on him in a claim of inversion.
Details of some of the words the Imams said about this man. Abu Qudamah said about Yahya ibn Sa'id: I sat with him in a session and I recognized in him — meaning lying — I sat with him in a session, meaning I attended his session for listening to hadith, and lying became apparent to me from his hadiths. Abu Talib said about Ahmad — Imam Ahmad — he said: his hadith is denounced, his hadith is abandoned. And so said Amr ibn Ali from Ibn Ma'in: weak. The two narrations are of no value. He also says his hadith is not written. And Abu Zur'ah said: his hadith is weak, not ... from him is anything. And al-Bukhari said: they abandoned him. And al-Nasa'i said: he is not trustworthy; Yahya and Abd al-Rahman abandoned him. And al-Hakim Abu Ahmad said: his hadith is gone. And Ibn 'Adi said: most of what he narrates, the weakness is evident upon him. Al-Barqi and Ya'qub ... and Dawud al-Sajji weakened him. And al-Daraqutni said: abandoned, his hadith is gone. And Ibn Hibban said: he used to invert the reports. Look, this is a core argument, meaning, Ibn Hibban says he used to invert the reports until it precedes to the heart that he did it intentionally. So how is it permissible to claim the inversion of a hadith by trustworthy narrators because of the narration of this abandoned man who is accused of lying?
He said: "And it has been narrated from Abu Hurayrah what confirms that and matches the hadith of Wa'il ibn Hujr. Ibn Abi Dawud said: Yusuf ibn 'Adi narrated to us, al-Fadl narrated to us. Perhaps I am in error regarding Muhammad ibn Fudayl from Abdullah ibn Sa'id, the same man here whom your companion just mentioned, from Abdullah ibn Sa'id from his grandfather from Abu Hurayrah, that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to, when he prostrated, begin with his knees before his hands". What is your opinion now? He is arguing with the same weak man here who narrated the first hadith inverted, contradicting the narration of the trustworthy one. He also narrated it inverted from another aspect. The hadith is from his saying (peace be upon him), so he inverted it and made it from his action.
Then he said: "And Ibn Khuzaymah narrated in his Sahih from the hadith of Mus'ab ibn Sa'd from his father, who said: We used to place our hands before our knees, and we were commanded to place our knees before our hands. And on this basis, if the hadith of Abu Hurayrah is preserved", meaning the verbal hadith
but should put down his hands before his knees
وليضع يديه قبل ركبتيهSo, if we want to summarize these words, we arrive at the result that this hadith is very weak. The hadith that they used to place their hands before their knees and then were commanded to do the opposite is very weak, by the testimony of the statements of the Imams which the same author transmitted. This is the first defect. The second defect, which is much more important, is that the preserved narration from Mus'ab ibn Sa'd from his father is only about the application (placing hands on knees) and Sa'd's saying "We used to place this, so we were commanded to place our hands on the knees." This is the preserved, authentic hadith, and it is narrated in Sahih Muslim. Ibn Mas'ud (may Allah be pleased with him) used to hold that the one bowing, when he bows, does not place his hands on his knees, but rather he applies his palms together like this, then inserts them between his thighs. This is the application, and he was very strict in adhering to this application.
With Mus'ab, who is the son of Sa'd, he was praying one day next to Abdullah ibn Mas'ud. So when Ibn Mas'ud bowed, he applied his hands, and his companion Mus'ab next to him took hold of his knees. What Ibn Mas'ud did was untie his hands from his knees, apply them for him, and push them, using the Shami expression, between his thighs.
The man knew the status of Ibn Mas'ud, so it overcame his suspicion that this was the Sunnah with which the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) left his Companions, so he responded to him. This was in Kufa, in the town where Ibn Mas'ud was. Then he returned to Madinah, where his father Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas, one of the ten promised Paradise, was. He recounted to him what Ibn Mas'ud did to him. Sa'd (may Allah be pleased with him) said: My brother Ibn Mas'ud spoke the truth. We used to do that, then we were commanded to take hold of the knees. Ibn al-Qayyim says, and this is from his fairness, of course, that the preserved hadith from Mus'ab ibn Sa'd, the Tabi'i, from his father, the Companion, has no relation to the issue of the abrogation of placing the hands during prostration with the knees, but rather this hadith has a relation to the application. So that abandoned narrator of extreme weakness either intentionally inverted this hadith as well, or due to his extreme poor memory, the matter became mixed up for him, and instead of narrating the story of the application, he narrated something that does not exist, which is that they used to place their hands during prostration and were commanded to place the knees before the hands.
So, Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allah have mercy on him) in this.
... the people in it, and he clarified that it is not permissible to rely on it due to the extreme weakness of its narrator first, and because the preserved, authentic hadith is only about the story of the application, not about the story of descending into prostration.
He said: "As for the statement of the author of al-Mughni from Abu Sa'id: 'We used to place our hands before our knees, so we were commanded to place our knees before our hands,' this is, Allah knows best, an error in the name, and it is actually from Sa'd. And it is also an error in the text, as mentioned before, and it is only about the story of the application".
I see that we should suffice with this now, as more than an hour has passed. We will complete the research, if Allah wills, in the next session, and it will hopefully not take much time so that we can devote ourselves to answering the remaining questions or some of them, if Allah wills. Therefore, we conclude this session with this amount, and praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
The Shaykh : Yes.