What is the ruling on cooperating with interest-based banks, and if it is forbidden, what is the alternative to them?

The second session.
Abu Layla : As we draw your attention to the fact that knowing the first question in the session depends on the content of the hadith.

The Shaykh : Because in the time of the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him), there were only those usurers who were known for their wealth and abundance, and they did not have specific shops. A person would come, and it was known to everyone that he was rich and that he was a usurer. They would say to him, "Bring two witnesses." He would bring two witnesses, and he would have a scribe to write, or a scribe would come from his side, and so on. So everyone cooperated in these types of dealings: the one who eats usury, the one who feeds it, its scribe, and its witnesses. Because of this cooperation in this terrible evil, he (peace and blessings be upon him) said: Today, the bank does not stand on these four types. The bank now does not need, in many transactions, what? Witnesses. But it needs, instead of witnesses, many types of cooperators, and very many, starting from the garbage collector, the sweeper, the cleaner, to the head of the bank. How many types are there in the present age? All of these fall under the curse because they cooperate in this huge evil. And this hadith, in reality, is one of the examples we always consider by which we can explain the eloquence of the Qur'an, such as His saying, the Exalted: So dealing with banks is a sin and an aggression against the money and rights of people, after their aggression against the rulings of Allah and the Shari'ah of Allah. So always look at the type of dealing with any bank; if the Shari'ah gives you permission, then it is permissible, otherwise it is not. And most of the transactions today that take place in banks are contrary to the Shari'ah, without a doubt. And in very brief terms, it is not permissible to deal except out of dire necessity, which permits the Muslim to eat pork.

The questioner : Just, and by Allah, O Shaykh, if you could...?

The Shaykh : What is the alternative?

The questioner : ... .

The Shaykh : And this is the problem. The answer to the question mentioned earlier, from one of our brothers, "What is the alternative?" In my opinion, the answer to this is not easy, not for the one answering, but for the questioners, because it is not hidden from all those present that the banks existing now are the fruit of the change in the souls of the Muslims, among whom these banks were established that deal in a non-Islamic manner. So it is one of the effects of the corruption of the Muslim society. So when we ask for an alternative to this bank that is incompatible with the true Muslim society, we cannot find the alternative except by bringing about the change and transformation, as our Lord, the Mighty and Majestic, said in the Noble Qur'an: Because if an alternative is found, and it will not be possible to find it while the Muslims remain as they are, if it is found, it will be rejected and abandoned, and the Muslims will not deal with it, because they are not truly Muslims and have not formed the Muslim society that accepts this alternative to the non-Islamic bank. And the issue of changing the souls referred to in the previous verse is a very important matter, and it is one of the matters that many Muslims, let alone the disbelievers, do not know its importance, and perhaps they knowThose present : All of us know that some of the laws of the disbelieving West were once enacted under the pressure of the experiments and the harms they felt with their own hands from the spread of drinking intoxicants in those lands. Upon observing these harms, they issued a law prohibiting intoxicants, but they quickly retreated from this prohibition and this law. Why? And here is the point: the souls to which this system and this law were imposed were not prepared to strive against their own souls and to stay away from drinking intoxicants, despite their knowledge of its harms. People only stay away from harmful things that the souls desire through the mindfulness of Allah (Blessed and Exalted is He), and nothing else. Therefore, we still find today many Muslim doctors who smoke, despite their knowledge of the harms of smoking, and some of them even drink intoxicants while knowing their harms. If some of the Muslim doctors are like this, drinking intoxicants, what can be said about the disbelievers? The matter is more severe and more dire with them. Therefore, they drink intoxicants day and night. Those who travel, or more accurately, those who are afflicted with travel to European countries, mention that the least they drink is water, whereas they actually drink intoxicants. So what is the way to stay away from what Allah has forbidden and to replace it with what Allah has permitted? It is not merely change and substitution, but rather the replacement of something established in the souls, which is the realization of the mindfulness of Allah (Mighty and Majestic), which is the cure for people staying away from all transactions that are forbidden in Islam. So, in brief, I want to say that the alternative cannot be found until the souls are prepared to stay away from these forbidden banks. When that happens, a famous phrase in the present age applies: "Necessity is the mother of invention." As long as people continue to turn to dealing with banks on the pretext that there is something in them, when there is nothing, and that it is a necessity, when it is not a necessity, and they do not look at the correct saying of the jurists: "Necessities permit the prohibited," but this rule is restricted by another rule, which is: "Necessities are determined by their extent." If you ask the merchants what the necessity is that compels you to deposit your money in thousands, or perhaps millions, in the banks, they will tell you: trade. Well, trade is not a necessity that permits the Muslim to commit prohibitions. How so, when Islam says in the explicit hadith of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him), in a hadith whose meaning is: So if you want to trade, you must fear Allah (Mighty and Majestic) and do not think that your deeming permissible what Allah has forbidden, under the claim that "necessities permit the prohibited," is valid, when there is no necessity there except for expanding the belly and filling the stomach with what Allah has forbidden. This is never a necessity. A person can live in this worldly life with the best living and the best life within the limits of contentment, and it is not necessary to be a great wealthy person, especially based on transactions that are forbidden in Islam. I have said this repeatedly and I see it obligatory upon me to repeat it to the people, even if some of them have heard it, for repetition brings benefit, as they say, and there may be someone who has not heard it. So I say that the Muslims today, in general—and this does not mean that there are some in particular who are not included in this generality—have forgotten the saying of Allah (Blessed and Exalted is He): When I say they have forgotten, I mean the Quranic meaning, and He said (the Exalted): So I said that the Muslims today have forgotten this noble verse: So let no one say, "No, my brother, they have not forgotten, and the proof is that you hardly enter a house without finding a sign with beautiful calligraphy: We say to him, "Hold on. I do not mean intellectual or scientific forgetting, but rather the practical forgetting mentioned in the previous verse: Is it mental forgetting? No, it is practical forgetting. So, today, with great regret, this verse applies to many, to hundreds of millions of Muslims. This severe warning applies: And what hardship is greater than that you deem permissible parts of the lands of Islam to the disbelievers, whether originally disbelievers or those who became disbelievers, and so on, and we live in the humiliation of these rulers, some of whom are original disbelievers and some are later disbelievers, and the like? This is the hard life in which you cannot move from one Islamic country to another, as it is obligatory to travel around the lands of Islam and repeat the journey of Ibn Battuta or Ibn Jubayr, or the like. A person is amazed at how this traveler or that one was able to travel these lands, which is proof that there were not these complications that the Muslims today are afflicted with. You cannot even cross a hundred or two hundred kilometers without needing to stop for hours until you are given permission and allowed to pass. This is from what? From the life and the hard living: to the end of the verse. So the previous verse is well known: but it is abandoned and neglected, and no one acts upon it. No merchant, except as Allah wills, and they are few, has it in his mind: We ask, and there is no answer: Do you believe in this verse? He says, "Yes," but I see that you do not act upon it. You do not fear Allah (Mighty and Majestic) until He finds an exit for you. In my opinion, the alternative now is in this verse. The alternative cannot be found by someone like me, nor by tens like me, nor by hundreds, or by establishing a bank in the customary sense today that is in accordance with the Sharia rulings, as long as this verse is still adorning the walls and not the hearts. If we were to change ourselves for the sake of Allah (Mighty and Majestic), He would change what is in us, by fearing our Lord, for Allah (Mighty and Majestic) is the truest of speakers: So the issue is not a material solution, that there is a system with the speed that the disbelievers seek and they enact laws to solve some problems. This requires the development of the nation from its souls, its ideas, and its beliefs, until our Lord (Mighty and Majestic) bestows upon them by inspiring them with the material alternative that comes with solutions to their problems and does not delay their worldly works, the permissible ones. And on this occasion, also on the occasion of commenting on this verse, I mention two hadiths that are considered an interpretation of this verse, a practical interpretation of what happened in some nations before us. He (peace and blessings be upon him) said, as narrated by Imam al-Bukhari in his Sahih: So what did he do? He did something strange. I am the first to disapprove of it, adhering to the natural universal principles known to people. But when a person turns to Allah (Mighty and Majestic) and relies upon Him, here come the wonders, as came in a hadith, and his saying (peace and blessings be upon him): From these wonders is this story. This man worked a spinning wheel, worked a madness, and madness has arts, but deeds are by their endings. Look at what happened to the man? So our Lord (Mighty and Majestic), who knows what is in the breasts and knows the sincerity of this man in his attempt to fulfill on the promised day, and the distance between him and the city was as much as Allah willed, so he relied upon Allah with true reliance, then he brought a cause within his ability. This cause, but it was not the whole cause. He did not have registered mail as exists today, or express mail, and so on.
Look now at the sincerity in fulfilling the promise on one hand, and not relying on what he did. You hear that the Sufis say, "So-and-so was taken by the state (hal)." I deny this thing, but this statement has a meaning that you must know with me. The issue of a person sometimes being taken by the state is not disapproved of at all, because a person sometimes has to disconnect from the material existence by his elevation to the higher and his connection to the highest assembly. This man, when he threw the plank with the hundred dinars on it, without a doubt, he was taken by the state.
Al-Halabi : The state of faith?

The Shaykh : Please, allow me; we say that the Sufis say "he was seized by a state," meaning that he was in a state of ecstasy, remembering Allah, and he was seized by a state. No, this is not being seized by a state. Here, he was seized by the feeling that he must, if he had wings, fly to that country for what? To pay the money to fulfill the promise; but it was not in his hand. So what does he do? Here, there is no good except with what exists. This is what came out in his hand: he packed the money in a wooden plank and threw it into the sea, and so on. But this state that seized him did not last with him, so he returned to the natural state. The natural state is expressed by what happened when he came to his friend: he ignored everything he had done and took out of his pocket and paid him one hundred dinars. If he had relied on that action, he would have said to him, "I sent you one hundred dinars by divine post, perhaps it reached you." What do I know? This is a matter beyond human control, I saw it. Therefore, he ignored the matter and paid him one hundred dinars. This is undoubtedly the ultimate in loyalty and sincerity, and acting through material means. And the means, if it is correct to call them spiritual or divine, he combined both and returned to the usual system, so he paid the one hundred dinars. Look now at the position of the creditor, to remind us of the common saying, "Birds fall according to their kind." If one of the rich people today came with this divine post, which has no equal, one hundred dinars, and put them in his pocket or in his safe, and when the debtor came to pay him, he would say to him, "May Allah reward you with good," because this debtor cannot establish the proof against him that he sent him one hundred dinars, as we do today with a chargeback card, saying, "I sent you, there is nothing of this." Above the natural cosmic causes that occurred. But this rich man is like this debtor; both are in the fear of Allah and in the mindfulness of Allah equally. What did he do? ; this is an interpretation of the saying of Allah the Exalted: meaning that Allah subjected for this man the sea, the waves, these crashing waves... the firm mountains, the large ships that you have seen, like a country moving in the sea. Our Lord, Mighty and Majestic, subjected this wave for this pious man. So the mindfulness of Allah the Exalted brings about wonders, but unfortunately, we no longer feel the effect of mindfulness of Allah today, except rarely and very rarely. The second hadith that I mention on this occasion is also a miracle and a sign that confirms the effect of the Muslim's mindfulness of Allah the Exalted, and how our Lord subjects the universe for him. He said, peace and blessings be upon him: , a sound from the clouds, even in the time of the dominance of airplanes over the clouds, it is not possible to hear the sound of humans except the sound of the roar of airplanes.