The discussion regarding the items in which riba (usury or interest) applies and the items in which it does not apply.
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The Shaykh : In the sale of certain items for one another, what are the items? You? The one on your right, come on.
The student: Gold
The Shaykh : Gold.
The student: And silver
The Shaykh : And silver.
The student: And barley.
The Shaykh : And barley.
The student: And wheat.
The Shaykh : And wheat.
The student: And salt.
The Shaykh : And salt. One remains.
The student: And dates.
The Shaykh : And dates. That makes it. These are the six categories in which riba (usury or interest) exists, and what is in their meaning, like rice, meaning what? Meaning wheat and barley, so it has their ruling. Now, if you sell wheat for wheat, what is obligatory?
The student: Riba.
The Shaykh : Riba? No, it is not riba.
The student: Wheat for wheat.
The Shaykh : Yes. The Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) did not say that wheat for wheat is riba. Now, similarity is required, and what else? And the exchange hand-to-hand. If you sell wheat for wheat, equality is necessary, or if you wish, call it similarity, and the exchange is also necessary. Now, do you see if I sell a sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) for two sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg), is it riba or not, with the exchange?
The Shaykh : It is riba because it is not equal to equal.
The Shaykh : Now, do you see if I sell a sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) for a sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) deferred, which I do not take possession of?
The student: Riba.
The Shaykh : Why?
The student: Because there is no exchange.
The Shaykh : Because there is no exchange. May Allah reward you. So, if we sell a type for its type, what is necessary? Two conditions: similarity, meaning equality, and second, the exchange before parting. If you sell your brother barley for dates,
The student: It is permissible.
The Shaykh : Permissible absolutely? Now, if you sell a sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) for two sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg), meaning you sell a sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) for two sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg),
The student: Due to the difference in type.
The Shaykh : Now, is nothing obligatory at all?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Absolutely not. A sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) for two sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) has nothing in it, but nothing else is required.
The student: The exchange.
The Shaykh : So say this: If you sell dates for wheat, the increase is fine, but the exchange before parting is necessary. May Allah reward you.
Now, if you sell your brother, if you sell gold for silver,
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Is the difference in amount permissible, and it must be hand-to-hand? Do you have evidence? What is it?
The student: If the categories differ,
The Shaykh :Sahih Muslim 1587c
The student: Then sell as you wish.
The Shaykh :Sahih Muslim 1587c Now, if you sell a car for two cars. Brother, answer.
The student: ...
The Shaykh : What did we say?
The student: Selling a car for two cars.
The Shaykh : Yes, is it permissible?
The student: It is permissible with the condition of the exchange.
The Shaykh : With the condition of the exchange, it is permissible to sell a car for two cars with the condition of the exchange. Come on, do you agree with this?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : The answer is that the exchange is not required. Well done. This is the answer. Why?
The student: Because it is not from the riba (usury or interest) categories.
The Shaykh : Because it is not from the riba (usury or interest) categories. Now, do you have evidence for this from the Sunnah? You don't have it. Rest, Abdullah ibn Amr.
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Rest. The evidence for this is Why? This has a difference in amount and a delay in taking possession. Why?
The student: It is not from the riba (usury or interest) categories.
The Shaykh : Because this is not from the six categories, nor in their meaning. Now, the brother sold you a pound of lead for two pounds of copper. Do you know copper? Now, a pound of lead for two pounds of copper, is it permissible?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Is it permissible with the condition of the exchange?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh : Is it permissible with the condition of the exchange?
The student: No, it is not permissible.
The Shaykh : It is not permissible absolutely.
The student: It is permissible without the exchange.
The Shaykh : Permissible without the exchange, meaning he sells you a pound of lead for a pound of copper and does not take possession of it until the Day of Judgment. What?
The student: He gives it to him on a deferred basis.
The Shaykh : Meaning the increase is permissible and the delay in taking possession is permissible. Why?
The student: Because it is not from the six categories.
The Shaykh : It is not from the six categories, nor in their meaning. May Allah reward you. That is complete.
The student: Gold
The Shaykh : Gold.
The student: And silver
The Shaykh : And silver.
The student: And barley.
The Shaykh : And barley.
The student: And wheat.
The Shaykh : And wheat.
The student: And salt.
The Shaykh : And salt. One remains.
The student: And dates.
The Shaykh : And dates. That makes it. These are the six categories in which riba (usury or interest) exists, and what is in their meaning, like rice, meaning what? Meaning wheat and barley, so it has their ruling. Now, if you sell wheat for wheat, what is obligatory?
The student: Riba.
The Shaykh : Riba? No, it is not riba.
The student: Wheat for wheat.
The Shaykh : Yes. The Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) did not say that wheat for wheat is riba. Now, similarity is required, and what else? And the exchange hand-to-hand. If you sell wheat for wheat, equality is necessary, or if you wish, call it similarity, and the exchange is also necessary. Now, do you see if I sell a sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) for two sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg), is it riba or not, with the exchange?
The Shaykh : It is riba because it is not equal to equal.
The Shaykh : Now, do you see if I sell a sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) for a sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) deferred, which I do not take possession of?
The student: Riba.
The Shaykh : Why?
The student: Because there is no exchange.
The Shaykh : Because there is no exchange. May Allah reward you. So, if we sell a type for its type, what is necessary? Two conditions: similarity, meaning equality, and second, the exchange before parting. If you sell your brother barley for dates,
The student: It is permissible.
The Shaykh : Permissible absolutely? Now, if you sell a sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) for two sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg), meaning you sell a sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) for two sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg),
The student: Due to the difference in type.
The Shaykh : Now, is nothing obligatory at all?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Absolutely not. A sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) for two sa' (a dry measure of about 3 kg) has nothing in it, but nothing else is required.
The student: The exchange.
The Shaykh : So say this: If you sell dates for wheat, the increase is fine, but the exchange before parting is necessary. May Allah reward you.
Now, if you sell your brother, if you sell gold for silver,
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Is the difference in amount permissible, and it must be hand-to-hand? Do you have evidence? What is it?
The student: If the categories differ,
The Shaykh :
If these classes differ
فإذا اختلفت هذه الأصنافThe student: Then sell as you wish.
The Shaykh :
if payment is made hand to hand
إذا كان يداً بيدThe student: ...
The Shaykh : What did we say?
The student: Selling a car for two cars.
The Shaykh : Yes, is it permissible?
The student: It is permissible with the condition of the exchange.
The Shaykh : With the condition of the exchange, it is permissible to sell a car for two cars with the condition of the exchange. Come on, do you agree with this?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : The answer is that the exchange is not required. Well done. This is the answer. Why?
The student: Because it is not from the riba (usury or interest) categories.
The Shaykh : Because it is not from the riba (usury or interest) categories. Now, do you have evidence for this from the Sunnah? You don't have it. Rest, Abdullah ibn Amr.
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Rest. The evidence for this is
That the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) ordered Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-As to lead an army, so he led the camels, and he would take one camel for two camels and two camels for three for the zakah (the obligatory alms) camels, so the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) approved him for that.
أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أمر عبد الله بن عمرو بن العاص أن ينفذ جيشاً فنفذت الإبل فكان يأخذ البعير بالبعيرين والبعيرين بالثلاثة إلى إبل الصدقة فأقره النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم على ذلكThe student: It is not from the riba (usury or interest) categories.
The Shaykh : Because this is not from the six categories, nor in their meaning. Now, the brother sold you a pound of lead for two pounds of copper. Do you know copper? Now, a pound of lead for two pounds of copper, is it permissible?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Is it permissible with the condition of the exchange?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh : Is it permissible with the condition of the exchange?
The student: No, it is not permissible.
The Shaykh : It is not permissible absolutely.
The student: It is permissible without the exchange.
The Shaykh : Permissible without the exchange, meaning he sells you a pound of lead for a pound of copper and does not take possession of it until the Day of Judgment. What?
The student: He gives it to him on a deferred basis.
The Shaykh : Meaning the increase is permissible and the delay in taking possession is permissible. Why?
The student: Because it is not from the six categories.
The Shaykh : It is not from the six categories, nor in their meaning. May Allah reward you. That is complete.