Discussion of the hadith prohibiting the prostration of the camel

The Shaykh : There is a difference between the one who prostrates in the manner of the camel, placing his knees on the ground, and the one who opposes the manner of the camel by prostrating on his hands. There is no difference between them in that both oppose the form of the camel's prostration; however, one matches it by prostrating on his knees, while the other opposes it by touching the ground with his hands. This is because the only difference is whether one places his hands before his knees or his knees before his hands. As for the head being above the rear, both are the same in that regard. The misconception arises from the fact that the one who argues for placing the knees before the hands imagines before him an old, frail scholar like myself, who can only prostrate in this manner, placing his hands and leaving his rear higher than his head. That is not the case. Just as any young, strong worshipper prostrates, the difference is only moments between touching the ground with your knees or touching the ground with your hands, and immediately after that, you place your knees. Therefore, the misconception that if a person prostrates on his hands, he resembles the camel in its prostration, is a misconception that has no truth whatsoever. Therefore, I want you, while you are with us, and praise be to Allah for following the correct Sunnah of the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) and interpreting the correct Sunnah in Arabic that has not been corrupted by foreign influence, to give us one example of this. Perhaps you will observe this in the future, if Allah wills. Then it is not hidden from you that there is no authentic hadith from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) regarding his action that he used to place his knees before his hands. The Hafiz Ibn Hajar, from the perspective of hadith, prefers this hadith of Abu Hurayrah: , over the hadith of Wa'il ibn Hujr. Therefore, the issue remains, from the linguistic and legal perspectives, stronger with the school of Malik and the people of hadith, as witnessed by Ibn al-Qayyim himself. This is from the perspective of transmission.
From the perspective of reasoning and derivation as well, and this is also an opportunity for me to confirm the correctness of my understanding of this term that was mentioned in many hadiths. Can we interpret, or say, that a man who prostrates with complete gentleness on his knees, then his hands, then his head, has "fallen" into prostration? Does the word "fall" (hawa) mean this slowness and refinement in prostration? Or does "fall" mean strength in prostration? This is a matter of derivation.
The student : You did not mention this, our Shaykh, in the topic?

The Shaykh : I mentioned it in places in my lectures or writings, but by Allah, I do not remember.
The student : There is none.

The Shaykh : It appears there is none. Then, from the practical perspective, what is more befitting for prayer is to prostrate on the knees. This prostrator, when he prostrates on his knees, has a specific tremor in cold countries, like the Syrian countries, where many of their mosques are covered with wood to prevent cold. The wood has a resonance, especially since the wood is usually not flat on the ground but has gaps, with pillars extending and then being covered, with partitions. So you find a strange noise and tremor from the worshippers who oppose the Sunnah. This is not consistent with prayer and the tranquility in it. This is from the perspective of falling into prostration. Then comes standing up, and this is more difficult regarding the authentic hadiths, because the hadith of Abu Hurayrah and the hadith of Ibn 'Umar that the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) used to place his hands before his knees when prostrating, some speak about it regarding the presence of 'Abd al-'Aziz ibn Muhammad al-Darqirdi in it. But what do we do with the hadith of Malik ibn al-Huwayris: "That the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to, when he stood up, stand relying on his hands." The opponents of this standing up followed the path of the deniers of attributes, meaning: they nullified the indication of this hadith with a very strange effort, saying: The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did that due to his old age and advanced years. Oh, glory to Allah! I say, in amazement at the great scholars, when they come to a hadith narrated by a Companion like this one, whose hadith includes: , this one who narrated to us this Prophetic matter is the one who narrates to us that he saw the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) , so how is it permissible for us to interpret that this standing up was due to weakness? Is this the principle, do you think, in explaining the actions of the Messenger in prayer, or is this contrary to the principle?

The Shaykh : I consider that one of the effects of weak hadiths is diverting the indication of authentic hadiths, and the hadith of Wa'il is one of these hadiths that Sharik ibn 'Abd Allah al-Nakha'i al-Qadi uniquely narrated, so for that reason, yes?
The student : ... Our Shaykh, by doing this, I remembered an argument you mentioned, our Shaykh.

The Shaykh: Good.
The student : The argument of opposition.

The Shaykh : Yes, exactly. Allahu Akbar.
The student : This cannot be realized.

The Shaykh : Not at all.
The student : By prostrating on the knees.

The Shaykh : With this gentleness.
The student : The separation of the hands during prostration.

The Shaykh : Yes, by Allah. I do not know if the brother 'Abdullah paid attention to this?
The student : Did you pay attention to the argument? The hadith of Abu Humayd al-Sa'idi.
Another student: I, my Shaykh, am not among those who go to the extent of prostrating on the knees.

The Shaykh : I do not intend this, I intend to benefit from what you have in this field.
The student : A little while ago, my Shaykh, you mentioned, may Allah preserve you, that a person may descend gently on his hands.

The Shaykh : May?
The student : He may descend gently and without, for example, ... on his hands, so in that case, there was no falling to the ground.

The Shaykh : I did not understand.
The student : You say, for example, he may not resemble the camel in the form of its prostration, and he descends with his stature on his hands.

The Shaykh : Yes, to get rid of resembling the camel, he must touch the ground with his two hands.
The student : With his two hands.

The Shaykh : Okay, but the opposite: is it possible to oppose the prostration of the camel? The opposite?
The student : In that case, I say this indicates regarding these transmitted hadiths: are they authentic or not authentic? There is no doubt that the hadith of Wa'il is weak, Sharik ibn 'Abd Allah as ...

The Shaykh : Okay, what remains?
The student : The hadith of Abu Hurayrah remains, with consideration regarding another defect in it.

The Shaykh : Which one?
The student : And it is Muhammad ibn 'Abd Allah ibn al-Hasan.

The Shaykh : Which one?
The student : And it is that he is a political man ...

The Shaykh : A political man?
The student : He has in the world only few hadiths, and he uniquely narrated from Abu al-Zinad, and Abu al-Zinad has many students.

The Shaykh : He has what?
The student : He has many students.

The Shaykh: Yes.
The student : So where are they from this Sunnah that he narrated ...

The Shaykh : And this is a defect in the terminology of hadith?
The student : By Allah, my Shaykh, in my opinion.

The Shaykh : No problem, I am asking you for your opinion on the topic.
The student : You know, my Shaykh, that attribution of defects is a relative matter.

The Shaykh : Relative, yes, but does this mean that the hadith becomes weak and not to be used as evidence if he is trustworthy and has few narrations and is political? Does his hadith become weak?
The student : From the perspective of what? From the perspective that others did not narrate it.

The Shaykh : Okay, is the anomalous hadith: that a trustworthy person narrates what others did not narrate?
The student : No, the anomalous hadith is by opposition, without doubt, the anomalous hadith.

The Shaykh : Okay, then this is not a defect.
The student : They attribute defects with such things, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh : How do you mean?
The student : Meaning they attribute defects by a man, for example, uniquely narrating, and this man is not among the known and famous for studying under this man, then they ask where the students of this man are from this hadith. Meaning, for example, I give you an example, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh: Yes.
The student : Meaning now, for example, the students who are with you ... if a man, brother 'Abd al-Rahman, now narrated a hadith for you, and this hadith is something that means it needs proof, meaning it is something that these should carry from you ... and we are among them, if Allah wills, does not a person pause and say: and where is so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so ...?

The Shaykh : Do you not feel with me that opening this door is very dangerous?
The student : Very dangerous if not.

The Shaykh : Because this cannot be stopped at a limit. The students in terms of.
The student : By way of approximation, this is a Shaykh, of course.

The Shaykh : Yes?
The student : By way of approximation, meaning this.

The Shaykh : The students in terms of their connection withThe Shaykh : and the abundance of their narration from him, differ by degrees that cannot be counted in the dozens.
The student : This is correct.

The Shaykh : All right, so what is the ratio we set to be reassured about accepting the hadith of the narrator who narrated fewer hadiths from the Shaykh, compared to the narrator who narrated more? This can never be set as a ratio. And if that is the case, we should not delve into this depth and reject the argument with the hadith of the student who narrated less, because this narration was not narrated by the one who narrated the most from the Shaykh. Yes, we can take into account this relative difference between the one who narrated the hadith, who is few in his narrations from the Shaykh, when there is something that pushes us to compare one hadith with another. For example: comparing a hasan hadith with a sahih hadith, where reconciliation between them is not possible. In that case, we place a defect in the hasan hadith and say: this is contradicted by the sahih hadith. But we are not in that situation. We are now, first, in the process of establishing one of the forms of prayer, and we have only a hadith from one who is known to be poor in memory due to his preoccupation with the judiciary, who is Shurayh ibn 'Abd Allah al-Qadi. And what about al-Nafs al-Zakiyyah? Or what?
The student : Al-Nafs al-Zakiyyah, yes?

The Shaykh : Yes, what is his defect? He was not described as being poor in memory, but rather he was described as being few in his narrations from Abu al-Zinad. All right, when does being few in narrations invalidate a hadith? The answer is: No. But it is possible to take into account or cling to such a scarcity if it contradicts the narration of a trustworthy narrator who is more trustworthy than him. And the matter here is not like that. Therefore, we should not cling to this scarcity. Likewise, clinging to this... your research reminds me that some people insisted on the defect pointed out by al-Bukhari, I think, by al-Bukhari, that he did not establish his meeting with Abu al-Zinad, is that not so?
The student: Correct.

The Shaykh : You are more knowledgeable than I am. Yes?
The student : Muhammad ibn 'Abd Allah ibn al-Hasan is not corroborated in his hadith.

The Shaykh : Ah, this is a defect unique to al-Bukhari, and we do not follow...
The student : The defect based on al-Bukhari's school of thought in...

The Shaykh : Yes, that is it. But when people find the ways to reject a hadith narrow, thinking that it contradicts what is established with them, they cling to such defects. Yes, in any case, we were at the hadith of Malik ibn al-Huwayth.
The student: Yes.

The Shaykh : So the hadith of Malik ibn al-Huwayth confirms the hadith prohibiting imitating the camel, because when the camel rises, it also rises relying on its knees, whereas in Malik's hadith, he rises relying on his hands. So they are opposites.
The student : In agreement and in opposition.

The Shaykh : In agreement and in opposition, one should oppose the camel. So if we look at Malik's hadith and consider it a hadith that cannot be attempted to be defective, as we were just doing with the hadith of al-Nafs al-Zakiyyah, for example, we say: by what proof do we contradict the hadith of Malik ibn al-Huwayth? The proof is that he did it out of weakness. Allahu Akbar! Bring your proof if you are truthful. There is no proof. Then here is something very serious. This Companion whom we mentioned earlier narrated to us: What do you think he was doing? Was he doing as he narrated to us from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him), or was he contradicting it as the majority contradicts this hadith? The answer is: he was doing what he narrated. All right, is it not said here that the witness sees what the absent one does not see? Is it not said that the narrator is more aware of his narration than others? All of this is said. So by what is the hadith rejected? By mere claim, that he did it due to his old age.
The student : This is a weak statement, our Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Weak.
The student : And the same applies to the statement regarding the rest.

The Shaykh : It is so, and I think he is among the group of narrators.
The student : Yes, he is.

The Shaykh : Yes, just as the sitting for rest was also narrated by Abu Humayd from ten of the Companions of the Messenger.
The student : Al-Bukhari in the Sahih, the hadith of the one who prays poorly?

The Shaykh: Yes.
The student : But al-Bukhari pointed out a defect in it with a man, but it was corroborated in the Musnad of Ishaq ibn Rahawayh.

The Shaykh : Yes, in the hadith of the one who prays poorly? What is in my mind is that this sitting is spoken of, who do you say corroborated him?
The student : It was corroborated in the Musnad of Ishaq ibn Rahawayh.

The Shaykh : Yes.
The student: Yes.
Another student : The hadith of Abu Hurayrah?
Another student : The hadith of Abu Hurayrah, yes.

The Shaykh : The hadith of Abu Hurayrah regarding the one who prays poorly is in al-Bukhari.
The student : Yes, in some of its chains, the rest is mentioned, but al-Bukhari pointed out a defect in it.

The Shaykh: Yes.
The student : So we found a corroborator for it in the Musnad.

The Shaykh : All right, who was the one who contradicted?
The student : I forgot, Shaykh...
Another student : The Musnad of Ishaq, our Shaykh, the Musnad of Abu Hurayrah from it is not with you in the printed version, it was printed, the Musnad of Ishaq.

The Shaykh : The Musnad of Ishaq, I think two volumes were printed from it.
The student : No, two others were printed, our Shaykh...
Another student : It appears to be Ibn Asama.

The Shaykh : How?
The student : Ibn Asama.
Another student : Muhammad ibn Asama?
Another student : Muhammad ibn Asama, yes.

The Shaykh : The corroborator is him.
The student : He is the one who said: al-Bukhari is unique in it.

The Shaykh : Yes.
The student : In something else...

The Shaykh : All right, in that case, does the sitting for rest become obligatory?
The student : The rest?

The Shaykh : Yes.
The student : Allah knows best.

The Shaykh : How?
The student : Yes?

The Shaykh : How?
The student : I am asking you, may Allah reward you...
Another student : Allahu Akbar! May Allah strengthen you, our Shaykh.

The Shaykh : May Allah preserve you.
The student : I have a Shaykh I want to ask you about.

The Shaykh : The Musnad of Ishaq.
The student : But I don't think you have the Musnad of Abu Hurayrah, our Shaykh. A part of the Musnad of Abu Hurayrah was printed, and a part, meaning a study on the Musnad.

The Shaykh : Yes.
The student : So I am the one who mentions it, as you said, our Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Excuse me, the Musnad of Abu Hurayrah is in which part?
The student : The first...
Another student : The second and third were printed.

The Shaykh : I am the one who remembers, I have the Musnad of 'Aishah.
The student : This is the second and third. Then the first and the introduction were printed as a volume.

The Shaykh : Ah. All right, I don't know how to find it from the index.
The student : By Allah, our Shaykh, the library, may Allah help you with it, meaning now I searched for a book and I didn't find anything, truly. I ask Allah to help you...

The Shaykh : O Allah, amen.
Another student : I have an inquiry, may Allah reward you.

The Shaykh: Yes.
The student : From the narrators from Shurayh.

The Shaykh : From the narrators?
The student : From Shurayh in the hadith of Wa'il.

The Shaykh : Yazid ibn Harun.
The student : Ibn Hibban mentioned him in the Thiqat (reliable narrators).

The Shaykh : Yes.
The student : He said: he is among those who narrated from Shurayh before, is this taken into account?

The Shaykh : Yes. I think there are other Imams who also mentioned the opposite of this, that they found mixtures in his books. Do you remember anything of this?
The student : This is the majority in his biographies... Shurayh ibn 'Abd Allah, and this detail was mentioned by...

The Shaykh : In that case, the affirming is preferred over the denying. Where did you get to, my son?
The student : ...

The Shaykh : The tape reached a place and stopped.
The student : In such a case, is it minor?

The Shaykh : Minor?
The student : Peace be upon you...
Another student: And upon you be peace.

The Shaykh : I don't think it is minor.