Some associations where each member contributes a monthly installment of money, which is then collected and given to one person, and so on until everyone has received their share?
Machine translationRead the Arabic original
The questioner : So, necessarily... the association has nine cases.
The Shaykh : Yes.
The questioner : This loan means... withdrawing is a mistake, this is on...
The Shaykh : No, let them cooperate on the basis that it is a loan.
The questioner : It is a loan, yes, the agreement is that it is a benevolent loan... meaning... he lends when he pays the thousand and does not take it back until... a benevolent loan.
The Shaykh : ... it must not...
The questioner : It stands for them, it stands at the limit of the amount, meaning - for example - how many are they... their number is ten people, so when the tenth person takes it, it is finished.
He sneezesThe Shaykh : And he praises Allah, and they sneeze =
[ The Shaykh : Praise be to Allah.
The questioner : May Allah have mercy on you.
The Shaykh : May Allah guide you and rectify your affairs.
The Shaykh : But the increase is not in...
The questioner : Yes, if it continues for another round, that is what you mean.
The Shaykh : ... another round.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Meaning, monthly they are paying something.
The questioner : Until the last person receives it, then they agree on another round, meaning - for example - if they are ten people, when the tenth person receives ten thousand, the... is complete.
The Shaykh : Good; may Allah bless you, I heard of something different, it resembles insurance, unless there is a matter of leniency, did you hear this from me?
The questioner : Yes, I heard.
The Shaykh : Good; and I also heard our brother Ghazi say that there is leniency, so if there is leniency, where is the leniency in the way that...
The questioner : Meaning, there is leniency if the man gave to someone...
The Shaykh : No, no, I assumed that he withdrew for some reason; he traveled or went to such and such, they say that there is leniency.
The questioner : And he had received the amount, meaning.
The Shaykh : Now... he paid a thousand... he took ten thousand, after he took the ten thousand, for some reason he died, and there is no way... or he traveled or fell ill or anything else, so the matter is not valid unless there is someone maintaining this cooperation on the basis of leniency.
The questioner : If it is how, how.
The Shaykh : And he is the one who said it.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : ... he is saying this, its subject is a benevolent loan.
Another questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : And so the picture that I mentioned earlier, he says the one who paid a thousand, the one who paid a thousand and took ten thousand, so he owes nine thousand, he says he owes ten thousand, he wants to pay it, he will perform it; is this correct?
The questioner : ... after he receives the amount?
The Shaykh: Yes.
The questioner : ... he pays the amount in installments.
Another questioner : Yes, but if he withdraws before paying the installments, it is not permissible, this is obligatory upon him.
The questioner : ... .
Another questioner: Yes.
The questioner : If he withdraws before paying the installments, he must pay the excess that is with him.
Another questioner : Yes, you, meaning he completes the ten thousand.
The questioner: Yes.
Another questioner : That is it.
The Shaykh : Excuse me, but here there is an objection to it; ... ... where is the leniency that we said this transaction resembles gambling, we said if he died or traveled or or to the end, so I said that the operation is not... unless there is leniency, so you said there is leniency.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : What is the leniency now?
Another questioner: The leniency, first, they say: that in some associations like this, there are conditions, suppose one person died and could not pay, so they bear it for him, some have this clause, some do not want this clause at all, but they put these amounts for each person to take monthly from the group that paid it.
The Shaykh : Then he pays it?
The questioner : Then he pays it all.
Another questioner : Yes, a loan, meaning.
The Shaykh : A loan.
Another questioner : Yes, a benevolent loan.
The Shaykh : No, there is no leniency.
The questioner : It is assistance in avoiding riba loans, O Shaykh.
The Shaykh: Yes.
The questioner : Yes, this is its goal.
The Shaykh : ... the leniency in the matter, meaning it is a right that must be present in this.
The questioner : Yes, this is the principle.
The Shaykh : Meaning, now we say: that this man who took the ten thousand after paying a thousand and died; so he will be held accountable...
Another questioner: No leniency in these matters, death.
The Shaykh : But he says, O professor.
Another questioner : ... it was not mentioned in... meaning it is not responsible for this; because we established an association, there was a clause among these clauses that in case of death, he is forgiven, but in case of withdrawal, he is held accountable for it on the Day of Resurrection - if Allah wills - .
.
Another questioner : In some associations, professor, this question arises, some do not specify it at all, so in case of death, it becomes a debt from the estate; meaning[An-Nisa 4:11] .
The questioner : It happened to us, O Shaykh; that one of the members of the association from... passed away, he transitioned to the mercy of Allah - Mighty and Majestic - , and he was in the receiving, first or second person, but by the grace of Allah - Mighty and Majestic - everyone forgave.
Another questioner : This is truly from the aspect of a type of humanity.
The questioner : Yes, this is of a type, yes, this is also mentioned in the clause.
The Shaykh : No, this is it, my brother, is it mentioned in the clause or not?
Another questioner: Yes, no, it is mentioned.
The Shaykh : But he says...
The questioner : ... .
Another questioner : We want the ruling if these clauses are not mentioned; does it mean the establishment of the association is permissible or not permissible?
Another questioner : Some are on the saying... they do not write the clauses on trust, trust is provided between the members.
The Shaykh : Yes, participation is possible, but with the intention of fairness and justice that he does not take more than he pays.
The questioner : No, this is possible, this is complete.
Another questioner : This is the principle.
The questioner : This is the principle in it.
The Shaykh : Good; anything else?
The Shaykh : Yes.
The questioner : This loan means... withdrawing is a mistake, this is on...
The Shaykh : No, let them cooperate on the basis that it is a loan.
The questioner : It is a loan, yes, the agreement is that it is a benevolent loan... meaning... he lends when he pays the thousand and does not take it back until... a benevolent loan.
The Shaykh : ... it must not...
The questioner : It stands for them, it stands at the limit of the amount, meaning - for example - how many are they... their number is ten people, so when the tenth person takes it, it is finished.
He sneezesThe Shaykh : And he praises Allah, and they sneeze =
[ The Shaykh : Praise be to Allah.
The questioner : May Allah have mercy on you.
The Shaykh : May Allah guide you and rectify your affairs.
The Shaykh : But the increase is not in...
The questioner : Yes, if it continues for another round, that is what you mean.
The Shaykh : ... another round.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Meaning, monthly they are paying something.
The questioner : Until the last person receives it, then they agree on another round, meaning - for example - if they are ten people, when the tenth person receives ten thousand, the... is complete.
The Shaykh : Good; may Allah bless you, I heard of something different, it resembles insurance, unless there is a matter of leniency, did you hear this from me?
The questioner : Yes, I heard.
The Shaykh : Good; and I also heard our brother Ghazi say that there is leniency, so if there is leniency, where is the leniency in the way that...
The questioner : Meaning, there is leniency if the man gave to someone...
The Shaykh : No, no, I assumed that he withdrew for some reason; he traveled or went to such and such, they say that there is leniency.
The questioner : And he had received the amount, meaning.
The Shaykh : Now... he paid a thousand... he took ten thousand, after he took the ten thousand, for some reason he died, and there is no way... or he traveled or fell ill or anything else, so the matter is not valid unless there is someone maintaining this cooperation on the basis of leniency.
The questioner : If it is how, how.
The Shaykh : And he is the one who said it.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : ... he is saying this, its subject is a benevolent loan.
Another questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : And so the picture that I mentioned earlier, he says the one who paid a thousand, the one who paid a thousand and took ten thousand, so he owes nine thousand, he says he owes ten thousand, he wants to pay it, he will perform it; is this correct?
The questioner : ... after he receives the amount?
The Shaykh: Yes.
The questioner : ... he pays the amount in installments.
Another questioner : Yes, but if he withdraws before paying the installments, it is not permissible, this is obligatory upon him.
The questioner : ... .
Another questioner: Yes.
The questioner : If he withdraws before paying the installments, he must pay the excess that is with him.
Another questioner : Yes, you, meaning he completes the ten thousand.
The questioner: Yes.
Another questioner : That is it.
The Shaykh : Excuse me, but here there is an objection to it; ... ... where is the leniency that we said this transaction resembles gambling, we said if he died or traveled or or to the end, so I said that the operation is not... unless there is leniency, so you said there is leniency.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : What is the leniency now?
Another questioner: The leniency, first, they say: that in some associations like this, there are conditions, suppose one person died and could not pay, so they bear it for him, some have this clause, some do not want this clause at all, but they put these amounts for each person to take monthly from the group that paid it.
The Shaykh : Then he pays it?
The questioner : Then he pays it all.
Another questioner : Yes, a loan, meaning.
The Shaykh : A loan.
Another questioner : Yes, a benevolent loan.
The Shaykh : No, there is no leniency.
The questioner : It is assistance in avoiding riba loans, O Shaykh.
The Shaykh: Yes.
The questioner : Yes, this is its goal.
The Shaykh : ... the leniency in the matter, meaning it is a right that must be present in this.
The questioner : Yes, this is the principle.
The Shaykh : Meaning, now we say: that this man who took the ten thousand after paying a thousand and died; so he will be held accountable...
Another questioner: No leniency in these matters, death.
The Shaykh : But he says, O professor.
Another questioner : ... it was not mentioned in... meaning it is not responsible for this; because we established an association, there was a clause among these clauses that in case of death, he is forgiven, but in case of withdrawal, he is held accountable for it on the Day of Resurrection - if Allah wills - .
Everyone laughs - may Allah have mercy on him -
الجميع يضحك - رحمه الله -Another questioner : In some associations, professor, this question arises, some do not specify it at all, so in case of death, it becomes a debt from the estate; meaning
after any bequest he [may have] made or debt
من بعد وصية يوصي بها أو دينThe questioner : It happened to us, O Shaykh; that one of the members of the association from... passed away, he transitioned to the mercy of Allah - Mighty and Majestic - , and he was in the receiving, first or second person, but by the grace of Allah - Mighty and Majestic - everyone forgave.
Another questioner : This is truly from the aspect of a type of humanity.
The questioner : Yes, this is of a type, yes, this is also mentioned in the clause.
The Shaykh : No, this is it, my brother, is it mentioned in the clause or not?
Another questioner: Yes, no, it is mentioned.
The Shaykh : But he says...
The questioner : ... .
Another questioner : We want the ruling if these clauses are not mentioned; does it mean the establishment of the association is permissible or not permissible?
Another questioner : Some are on the saying... they do not write the clauses on trust, trust is provided between the members.
The Shaykh : Yes, participation is possible, but with the intention of fairness and justice that he does not take more than he pays.
The questioner : No, this is possible, this is complete.
Another questioner : This is the principle.
The questioner : This is the principle in it.
The Shaykh : Good; anything else?
Source
www.al-albany.com
The Arabic text is copied verbatim from the original source, without any edits.