Discussion of the issue of the Exaltation of Allah - Blessed and Exalted is He - and mentioning the story of the Shaykh with the Azhari in Mina during the Hajj seasons?

The Shaykh: All right; be patient, I am going to tell you a story where you will see that the meanings you are currently denying regarding the word "where" are exactly what we always affirm. But - no offense - the lack of connection, cohesion, and gathering causes one to forget the truths that have settled in the hearts. Now, I am telling a story that happened between me and one of the sheikhs. I think you are among those who have heard it from me once or more than once. If you have not heard it, naturally someone else has. And then, what do you think of this person who affirms and asks: "Where is Allah?" Does he understand this divine attribute in the limited human sense?
One year of the years of Hajj, and we were in Mina. I was sitting with some pilgrims, some Egyptian and some Syrian, and I was talking. An Azhari Shaykh came in to us, "Peace be upon you." "And upon you, peace." He sat, listened to my talk, and caught the scent of the Salafi methodology from the talk. He said to me: "You are the Wahhabi group who liken the Lord of the Worlds to the created things." We said to him: "How?" He said: "You say that Allah is above the heavens." I said to him: "Do we say this, or is this the speech of the Lord of the Worlds?" And we then mentioned the verse: , , , and so on. So this is not our speech; this is the speech of the Lord of the Worlds, and it is obligatory to believe in it. Then I continued with him on the topic. The topic is logical and rational. I think you will like the method of this logic; because from your previous speech, it is evident that you are filtering out [certain aspects]. I said to him: "Come, now we need to see whether those who believe that Allah is established over the Throne are those who ascribe a body to Him, those who placed Him in a place and confined Him to a place, or is this a fabrication against them?"
I said to him: "Before anything else, I ask you a question: Is the created universe limited or unlimited?" He said: "Limited." We said to him: "Is Allah - Blessed and Exalted is He - limited?" He said: "No." We said to him: "Good; we agree on this meaning. Second question: Above us now is the lowest heaven."

The questioner: Is the indication that the created universe is limited a Shari'ah indication or an intellectual indication?

The Shaykh: No, it is both intellectual and Shari'ah.

Another questioner: Welcome, peace be upon you.

The Shaykh : And upon you be peace, and the mercy of Allah and His blessings.

Another questioner : Please, please.

The Shaykh: If the answer now is not sufficient for you... then postpone it until later. I said to him: "What is above this lowest heaven?" He said: "The second heaven, and the third, and so on. In short: the seventh heaven. And what is above the seventh heaven?" He said: "The Throne." We said to him: "Good; and what is above the Throne?" He said: "The Cherubim angels." I said to him: "What are these Cherubim angels?" He said: "Angels on the Throne." We said to him: "Do you have a verse about this?" He said: "No." Do you have a hadith about it? He said: "No." I said to him: "So where did you get these angels and place them on the Throne there?" He said: "By Allah, this is what the sheikhs in the Noble Al-Azhar taught us." I said to him: "Amazing, the sheikhs of Al-Azhar! They affirm to the students that beliefs are not established by authentic hadiths if they are ahad (singular) and not mutawatir (mass-transmitted), and yet you are now establishing a belief without any hadith at all. But this is not our goal. Let us proceed with you now; the Cherubim angels are above the Throne, and what is above the Cherubim angels? Is there something or is it finished?" He said: "It is finished." Yes, the creation is limited, meaning. We said to him: "Enough. From the beginning, we told him: the universe is derived from the verb 'to be' (kana yakunu); . So this universe, according to our belief, the highest of created things is the Throne of the Most Merciful. According to your belief, it is the Cherubim angels. And after that, what is there? Is there anything? Is there a created thing? Is there a place?" He said: "No." So why do you accuse us, saying that we placed our Lord in a place, when you have now, with sound scientific logic, reached the conclusion that after the Throne there is no place?!
Allah - when the Salafi Muslim says - is above the Throne, established, does not mean that He is in a place like a human in a place, nor does it mean that His being above the Throne is like the being above of a king on his chair or his throne; . So the expression, if the negations are correct, gathers the negation of what you are denying; this is one of the necessities of the Salafi call; because we often repeat with our brother Ali here , so all His attributes are commensurate with His Majesty and His Greatness, so they do not resemble anything of the attributes of the created things. And His attributes... are divided into two categories: an attribute of action and an attribute of essence, an attribute of action. His descent, Allah descends every night to the lowest heaven, is also an attribute of action. His descent is not like our descent, and His establishment is not like our establishment, and so on. So what you are going around in circles about, as if for the first time - no offense - you are connecting with this call, you are trying to say: "But this is not so, not so, not so," and as they say, it is one of our forgotten matters. Transcendence (tanzih) is one of the necessities of affirmation (ithbat), otherwise one would be likening Allah to creation. May Allah have mercy on Ibn al-Qayyim when he said: "The one who ascribes a body to Allah worships an idol, and the one who denies the attributes worships non-existence." So if the Salafi, just because of his affirmation of the attributes, wants to ascribe a body to their meaning, he worships an idol, God forbid. So transcendence with affirmation is the methodology of the righteous Salaf in all the attributes. So do not think that if we say: "He is established" or "Where is Allah," that there is a meaning of likening the Creator to the created, refuge in Allah!! . The question now: Have you heard this story before this time?

The questioner: No.

The Shaykh: All right; what do we do for you?

The questioner: Because I have not heard it... if you have not heard it... .

The Shaykh: No, no, no, I mean, the point of the question is that this story is the answer to your difficulties, but this is repeated in our gatherings.

The questioner: So you intend that I did not fully understand what my intention is now.

The Shaykh : It is permissible.

The questioner: I know and understand, and in my opinion, what you said is what you intend, and what you intend is clear.

The Shaykh: All right.

The questioner: In the general sense.

The Shaykh: All right.

The questioner: Except that I say that this thing is not clear in most of what is written and most of what is detailed regarding these specific topics, the thing we are talking about regarding the above-ness and the establishment... meaning, for you, it is one of the forgotten matters to the extent that it is not focused on. It may be mentioned in a word or two... but the main attention is focused on answering the deniers of attributes (mu'attilah), the figurative interpreters (mu'awwilah), and the likeners (mushabbihah), and so on. When you read this speech about the content of the Salafi call regarding the matter of creed... you find that most of the focus and most of the expansion is on the other aspects, which are answering the others, without a wide clarification of... We do not differ that you clarify that it is not like our hands, not like our hearing, not like our sight. This is not what I intend. My intention is that... the above-ness is not like our above-ness; even I think, of course, the idea... that it should be investigated that the Throne itself is one of the things whose essence we do not know, and it is a Throne that I think is not like the height... the above-ness... as we said, it is a different above-ness. Even the edge of the universe you are talking about, the separation between matter and non-matter, existence and non-existence; there too, it is something we do not perceive... and we do not perceive... I think all these things deserve, in the intellectual sense, more expansion regarding the Salafi creed. This... I read several things on this topic and found that this aspect, as thought and intellectual logic, is derived from the Islamic rules, not much in it... .