A Dialogue on the Hadith (Allah Created Adam in His Image)

Al-Halabi: Do you consider these to be errors, O our Shaykh?

The Shaykh: Allah is the Greatest!

The questioner: They are typographical errors, and there are additions in it regarding the reportThe Shaykh : of Ibn Baz and his conclusion and his report and everything, and the truth is I mentioned to Shaykh AliAl-Halabi : before I came to you that there is a fifth defect in the hadith, and I mean that Ata did not hear from Ibn Umar, and that is what Ibn al-Madini said: he saw him circumambulating the House, but he did not hear from him. Al-Alla'i mentioned that in Jami' al-Tahsil.

The Shaykh: Who mentions this defect?

The questioner: By Allah, one of the brothers, I am discussing the topic with him, said I found this defect, meaning.
Al-Halabi: I reviewed Jami' al-Tahsil, I reviewed it, O my Shaykh, today, and it says that he saw a number of the Companions but did not hear from them, it is transmitted from Ali ibn al-Madini, the thing our honorable brother mentioned is that he saw him circumambulating the House but did not hear from him.

The Shaykh: From him, but you say he did not hear from any of the Companions, you say?
Al-Halabi: You have Jami' al-Tahsil, look at the more precise phrase...

The questioner: I hope you wrote something, if Allah wills, on the topic?

The Shaykh: No.

The questioner: By Allah, O my Shaykh, some say that this is the statement of the Jahmiyyah...

The Shaykh: What is the statement of the Jahmiyyah, may Allah forgive you, what is it?

The questioner: That whoever returns the pronoun to Adam.

The Shaykh: Is this the statement of the Jahmiyyah?

The questioner: They cling to the statement of the Imam of the people of the Sunnah and the community, Ahmad ibn Hanbal.

The Shaykh: No, Imam Ahmad does not say this, Imam Ahmad did not speak about the hadith Imam Ahmad does not authenticate this hadith, is that so?

The questioner : Likewise.

The Shaykh: Well, let us rest from this hadith, then, from the side that the Imam of the Sunnah, Imam Ahmad, did not authenticate it, we return to the interpretation this is the correct narration, is it not so?

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh: Well, if we return the pronoun to Adam, the narrations from Imam Ahmad say that this is the statement of the Jahmiyyah, well, is it from the statement of the Jahmiyyah that Allah created Adam in His image, his height sixty cubits?

The questioner: No.

The Shaykh: Whose statement is this?

The questioner: This is the statement of the Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him.

The Shaykh: Then am I a Jahmi?

The questioner: No, you are not a Jahmi.

The Shaykh: Then who is the Jahmi?

The questioner: The Jahmi is the one who denies the attributes of the Lord, Exalted and Majestic is He.

The Shaykh: Well, then why do you feel the importance of the topic that the Imam says that whoever returns the pronoun to Adam, it is a Jahmi statement?

The questioner: They say, what image did Adam have before he was created in it?

The Shaykh: Do not discuss now, after you have believed with me in his statement, peace and blessings be upon him, and you said that this is the statement of the Messenger, then what do we say? To whom does the pronoun return?

The questioner: It returns to Adam.

The Shaykh: Well, if they now fall into likening Allah to creation, if they believe in this authentic hadith and they have no way but to believe in it with us because it is in Sahih al-Bukhari, then in that case, if they insist on returning the first pronoun to Allah, then we arrive at the result that the height of Allah is sixty cubits, and this is the complete likening of Allah to creation that some may derive from returning the pronoun to Allah in the authentic hadith also , this is from the complete likening of Allah to creation.

The questioner: They say, O Shaykh, we affirm the hadith as it came and we do not address its interpretation, it is not for us to interpret it, and they say that whoever claims that the apparent meaning of this hadith is likening of Allah to creation, this is refuted and false, because the texts of the Qur'an and the Sunnah, their apparent meaning cannot be likening of Allah to creation, because the Qur'an and the Sunnah came with what invalidates this, so how can the apparent meaning of the Qur'an and the Sunnah be disbelief...?

The Shaykh: You are now saying that they say we do not interpret, correct?

The questioner: Yes, it is not for us to interpret it.

The Shaykh: It is not for us to interpret, do you mean by this negation, and this did not come from you, but it is entirely a report from you.

The questioner : Yes, it is the same.

The Shaykh: And a report from you, and as a justification for such a report we say the one who reports disbelief is not a disbeliever, okay; so you say about them it is not for us to interpret, what do they mean by it is not for us to interpret, do they mean it is not for us to explain? And consequently it is not for us to understand? And in that case we return to tafwid, and I do not think they say this?

The questioner: They say, O Shaykh...

The Shaykh: No, no, no, do not explain to me, I told you I do not think they say this, so either you are with me or you are not.

The questioner : I agree with you.

The Shaykh: If you are with me, the matter does not require that you return and say they say, are they tafwid in this hadith?

The questioner: It is incumbent upon them, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh: It is incumbent upon them, this is it, then.

The questioner: But they do not acknowledge it, they...

The Shaykh: And this is the problem, O Shaykh, this is the problem, the people of desires twist and turn, sometimes they are mu'awwilah, sometimes they are mu'til, sometimes they are mu'awwidah, they do not have a straight methodology, and the people of the Sunnah, and at their head is Imam Ahmad, and we are behind him, they are not mu'awwidah, and they are not mu'awwilah in the scientific technical sense, and not in the scientific sense that, for example, Ibn Jarir says in the interpretation of the verse, meaning its explanation, clear?

The questioner : Is that clear?

The Shaykh: Well, then the people of the Sunnah are not mu'awwilah in the sense of taking the text away from its apparent meaning to a meaning that does not come to mind first, then there is no scientific evidence that compels us to resort to it second, okay?

The questioner : Okay.

The Shaykh: Then they, the people of the Sunnah, are mu'awwilah in the sense of explainers, correct?

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh: Then what does their statement benefit us, we do not interpret?

The questioner: In the innovated sense.

The Shaykh: In the innovated sense, well done, now we return to, we have the first hadith from the perspective of Arabic style, it allows returning the pronoun to both the Creator, Lord of the worlds, and the created, Adam, peace be upon him, correct or not?

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh: From the perspective of Arabic style...

The questioner: And the struck one?

The Shaykh: Where is the struck one?

The questioner: In another hadith, meaning, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh: We are talking about this hadith, if you answer with another hadith, we will talk about it, we are now, our hadith is did you not start the hadith quoting from them; I return to say quoting from them that they say the pronoun here returns to Allah?

The questioner : Yes, Shaykh.

The Shaykh: Well, we are still in this topic, and I hope we do not stray from the topic to a third hadith, and I do not say this to escape from researching the third hadith, no, for every occasion there is a speech and for every state there are men; so now I return to say the pronoun in this hadith, from the perspective of Arabic style, allows that it returns to the Creator, Glorified and Exalted is He, and to the created, which is Adam, correct or not?

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh: They left the second return, clinging to the first return and perhaps you know, like me, that the scholars say if the return of the pronoun to two hidden referents is possible, the preferred is that it returns to the one mentioned closest, this is known to you?

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh: So the one mentioned closest here in the hadith is Allah or Adam?

The questioner : Adam.

The Shaykh: Allah created Adam in His image.

The questioner : Adam.

The Shaykh: Well, then here is an important note from the perspective of Arabic style that the pronoun returns to the closest mentioned; so if a person from the people of the Sunnah and the community, for one reason or another, returns the pronoun to the closest mentioned, and this is an Arabic style, why is it said that he is a Jahmi? It can be said that he is a Jahmi if this interpretation came from a real Jahmi; but if it happened from the people of the Sunnah and the community, this should not be accused of being a Jahmi, because first, he is originally a Sunni and not a Jahmi; second, he used the Arabic language that it returns to the closest mentioned; third and finally, and this is the important one, to what did the first pronoun return, here there are two pronouns, no doubt that the first and second pronoun cannot have confusion introduced between them, so one returns to a hidden referent and the second returns to another hidden referent, but each returns to one hidden referent; are you with me or distracted?

The questioner: I am with you, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh: With me; so if Allah created Adam in His image, his height, his image, his height; if they insist on returning the pronoun to Allah, the second pronoun, to whom does it return, to Allah, who says the height of Allah is sixty cubits? Is this not likening of Allah to creation? Is this not disbelief itself? And therefore your Shaykh in this book tried to escape from this objection, I no longer remember how he twisted and turned, perhaps you, considering you are close to this research, remember what he did? I still have in my mind that he twisted and turned in the authentic hadith, but the detail of it fell and went from my mind, so perhaps you remember?

The questioner: Do you want their statement, O Shaykh, around the hadith?

The Shaykh: No, I want what the author al-Tuwajiri said.

The questioner: HeThe Shaykh : Why does he say that the pronoun returns to Allah?

The Shaykh: No, what is his position regarding the hadith of al-Bukhari his height is sixty cubits?

The questioner : What is your stance on this, O Shaykh?

The Shaykh : No, address it. How could you not? In any case, we are now discussing this in the context of cooperation in good, righteousness, and correct knowledge. Let us assume that he did not address it as you say, or that he did address it as I say. What matters to us is not whether I was right or wrong, or whether I was right or wrong. What matters to us is: what is the Muslim’s stance toward this hadith found in Sahih al-Bukhari What is the stanceThe Shaykh : toward this hadith?

The questioner : The stanceThe Shaykh : says that we take the first pronoun and refer it back to Allah, and the second pronoun we refer back to Adam; because the second cannot be referred back to Allah.

The Shaykh : This is what we were discussing. How does this work in the Arabic language?

The questioner : In his case, it works, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : How? Give us an example in the Arabic language like this so that we may... ?
Al-Halabi : Our Shaykh mentioned that one of the brothers discussed the issue with him, or rather, he discussed it with himThe Shaykh : Shaykh Nasaib al-Rafai in my presence, and it became... He mentioned the saying of Allah the Exalted as evidence for this: He said: "You honor him and you revere him" refers back to the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him), and "you glorify Him" refers back to Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He), and they are in the same context.

The Shaykh: And what are they?

The questioner : In the same context.

The Shaykh : In the same context, yes. But here the matter is completely different regarding tasbih (glorification). The word tasbih itself does not allow for the pronoun to be referred back to the nearest mentioned antecedent.
Al-Halabi : Yes, yes, meaning it is decisive.

The Shaykh : Without a doubt.
Al-Halabi : And it is one of the impossibilities, as the scholars of kalam (theology) call it.

The Shaykh : In any case, what concerns me in this matter is something truly important: what is the stance of the people of desires (ahl al-ahwa') regarding the texts, especially when they are hadiths? They may find a way out to get rid of them by saying it is a hadith that only conveys probability because it is an ahad (single-narrator) hadith, and so on. Their path is known: either ta'wil (figurative interpretation) of the text, or denying it if they are able to deny it. They do not hold back regarding the Qur'an; this is not possible, because if they deny anything from the Qur'an, their affair is exposed and they exit the religion. But regarding the hadith, they are able to deny it, and they have done so many times. The example exists in the present age; it exists in what this contemporary al-Ghazali did. Sometimes, from the people of the Sunnah, one of them does what they deny in the people of desires, which is going back and forth around the text. So, before this hadith what is our stance toward this hadith? Either we accept its clear indication that both pronouns refer back to the nearest mentioned antecedent; or we suspend the hadith and say this is an anomalous narration, or something similar. And I foundThe Shaykh : al-Tuwayjiri almost explicitly stating, though not clarifying, in some hadiths that are in the Sahih, that he points to something, for example, this book al-Hijab. I do not know the stance of this man. But our brother Ali mentioned to me that he weakened the hadith of al-Khath'amiah; is that not so?
Al-Halabi: Yes.

The Shaykh : I say, put the blame on your Shaykh; because he opened the path for this young man to attack the hadith that no one from the scholars of the Muslims had ever hinted at criticizing. How so? Al-Tuwayjiri said regarding the word "I think," either "a beautiful woman" or "al-Fadl was handsome." He says: "Al-Bukhari uniquely narrated this." He says: "So-and-so and so-and-so narrated it," and I think he took the takhrij (tracing) from my book. In the middle of this takhrij, he tells you: "Al-Bukhari uniquely narrated such-and-such." This is a hint, a soft, gentle, very subtle hint. It is not explicit. Perhaps a bold person like this will find the path opened for him and will run and say: "This is an anomalous hadith." So I mention this, and perhaps Professor Ali will be successful now and will bring out this statement. Look at the index, perhaps he is pointing to it... ?
Al-Halabi : I looked at the index... He brought the hadith once, but he did not address it fully in all places or in most of them In one place he brought it fully, but he did not point to anything. Perhaps now, if Allah wills.

The Shaykh : In any case, this edition will be, if Allah wills, a corrected one; whereas the old edition has something of this speech that makes the researcher feel that he did not deny its authenticity. Do not understand from me that he denied it, but rather he went back and forth around its meaning, and that is all. Unlike the hadith of al-Khath'amiah; in any case, do you have anything?
Al-Halabi : Before that, to complete the benefit, O Shaykh, regarding Ata

The Shaykh : What did you find?
Al-Halabi : What does it say? This is the complete statement. It says: Ata ibn Abi Rabah said: Ibn al-Madini saw Abu Sa'id al-Khudri circumambulating the House, and he saw Abdullah ibn Umar, but he did not hear from them, nor from Zayd ibn Khalid al-Juhani, nor from Umm Salama, nor from Umm Hani', nor from... And Ahmad ibn Hanbal mentioned that he heard from someone like him...

The Shaykh : No, may Allah reward you. It is not permissible for us to say that he did not hear from any of the Companions.
Al-Halabi : Absolutely not.

The Shaykh : Based on these texts, this is what I wanted to verify.
Al-Halabi : But this, O our Shaykh, truly benefits the research, meaning the explicit statement of his saying. Perhaps he did not mention it, especially in the issue of preferring the mursal (disconnected) over the musnad (connected) that you mentioned. This strengthens the research.

The Shaykh: Correct.
Al-Halabi : Yes, exactly.