The Black: Some scholars of this era who are well-versed in the matter say that what is meant by it is a substance, not a color?

Mashhur: The other question is that regarding the Black, some scholars of this era who are well-versed in the matter say that what is meant by it is a substance, not a color?

The Shaykh : We say to them: Bring your proof if you are truthful.
Mashhur: They support that with linguistic reports.

The Shaykh : No, no. Is this philosophy assumed to be understood by the addressees, given his saying (peace and blessings be upon him) ?
Mashhur: Except by circumstantial evidence, we assume except by circumstantial evidence.

The Shaykh : The addressees, Professor.
Mashhur: The addressees, unless they knew that the Black was a substance, the default is that it is with the color.

The Shaykh : I have now reached an age of extreme oldness and I do not understand this speech. What is behind it? I mean, if it is a substance, for example henna, or if it is an artificial dye, what is behind this interpretation? And we all know, as you know, the rulings of the Shari'ah. We said based on the apparent . So you have now given us the difference between this and that according to that detail. And what you clarified regarding your opinion in that philosophy, what is the fruit of this fruit?
Mashhur: It is possible that dyeing with Black occurs with a substance other than this one, assuming that the statement is correct.

The Shaykh : Which substance?
Mashhur: The substance of the Black, if the addressees knew this.

The Shaykh : We understood the reservation. We want to understand scientifically how?
Mashhur: I mean, Blackness may occur from a substance other than this, and it would be permissible.

The Shaykh : We need an example. Is this, for example, chemical dye, an example of this?
Mashhur: I do not know the substance of the Black. When it is a substance, I know the interpretation of this substance. I am conveying from them; I do not know the substance of the Black. So, assuming it came to my mind and I knew it, I would say the dye, as long as it is not that substance, its color is permissible.

The Shaykh : If you and I do not understand this philosophy, how do the general people understand it? How do they apply it? I mean, the result of this philosophy is that there is permissible Black and there is impermissible Black, right or not?
Mashhur: Correct.

The Shaykh : Well, you do not understand this detail practically, you do not know its application, and I am like you. Does Islam, with its ease, gentleness, and addressing of the general people, come to such a philosophy that hardly a few people understand? We have some jurisprudential examples that resemble this detail or this philosophy. The jurists differed in the past regarding water if impurity falls into it. What is this water? There are many opinions. What concerns us now is the old opinion of the Hanafi school: if the water is much and impurity falls into it, it does not become impure, and if it is little, it becomes impure. This is high-level speech that the general people cannot understand, let alone the common people. Some of their predecessors felt this, so he tried to define "much." He said "much" is if you move it from this side, it does not move from that side—Glory be to Allah. The water may be very abundant, its depth tens of meters, but its circumference is narrow, so if you move it from here, it moves from there, but in... in the bottom. And it may be the opposite, where the height of the water is, for example, a span, but the area is very wide, so if you move it from here, it does not move from there. This is not a statement and a criterion at all. Others came, and this is the last that was said, and I hope you do not hear more than that. They said if the water is ten by ten, meaning ten cubits, we clarify, then it is pure, even if impurity falls into it. This is also like the previous one and does not need explanation because they did not define the depth either. Even if they did, my brother, they would not get out of the strong, very strong problems and objections. And that is because the much water does not become impure, no matter what conditions they set, if the impurity that fell is little. If the impurity is much and overcomes this much water in their opinion, despite their disagreement in the definition, the matter is not regulated. But look at how the Shari'ah makes the matter easy so that the Bedouin shepherd, or the shepherd of camels, or cows, or sheep, understands it . That is, as agreed upon by Muslims, unless one of its three characteristics changes: its taste, or its color which you see, or its smell which you smell. If so, the Shari'ah "Speak to people according to their intellect. Do you want Allah and His Messenger to be lied to?" A report from 'Ali ibn Abi Talib.
Now we come to a new philosophy. Dyeing with Black may be forbidden and may be permissible. What is the dividing line between this and that? I have not understood it until now. Do you have something?
Al-Halabi : Regarding the statement of the brother Mashhur, quoting some contemporary scholars, that the Black which is said to be a substance and not a color is not what is mentioned in the Prophetic hadith, but rather what is mentioned from the Salaf to exonerate them from contradicting the Prophetic hadith!

The Shaykh : My brother, may Allah reward you. This is a repetition of Mashhur's words. Explain to us the dividing line between this and that. What is it?
Al-Halabi : The name of the Black they intend is a substance. It is not required that its color be black. And so-and-so from the Imams of the Salaf, for example, or the Companions, or the Tabi'un, say this is not the black color that is prohibited. This is a substance named the Black, like the substance of henna, like the substance of katam, etc. This is what is intended, Shaykh. It is not that there is permissible Black and impermissible Black.

The Shaykh : Well, what is the benefit of this speech?
Al-Halabi : The benefit of it is only to exonerate some of the Salaf from whom it was reported from contradicting the Sunnah. This is what I understood from the statement of the scholar referred to in his speech on this issue.

The Shaykh : Well, first, well, we have answered regarding the exoneration with what was previously mentioned about the hadith. Second, this is not said because when the scholars investigated this issue and mentioned the forbidden Black, they said that some of the Salaf did this same Black with the color. This is it. Therefore, this does not benefit!
Al-Halabi : And it indicates, Shaykh, that the original term of the Black is intended to mean the color, and departing from that requires evidence.

The questioner : Al-Hafiz mentioned in *al-Fath* that some scholars excepted dyeing in war from that. Is this correct?

The Shaykh : No, this is not correct. This is all rationalization by opinion regarding the intimidation of the enemy. Well, intimidating the enemy is done through jihad and fighting, not by dyeing the white.