A man enrolled in social insurance and then died; is it permissible for his family to receive a specific salary from social insurance?
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The questioner : One professor is registered with social insurance, meaning a worker who passed away (may Allah have mercy on him); is it permissible for his family to receive a specific salary from social insurance?
The Shaykh : We must know what social insurance is. Professor Muhammad is here; is it savings from the worker's salary, or is it investment? When they deduct a portion each month and profit from it through riba (usury or interest), if it is the former, there is no problem; it is permissible, and the deceased's family has the right to claim it. But if it is invested in riba and the money multiplies over the years, riba is not permissible in any way. What is your information on this?
Another questioner: The situation is... now a portion of the salary is deducted... ten percent, and an amount equal to or double this percentage is also taken from the employer, and this is considered a reserve to be given to the worker.
The Shaykh : Good, but
Another questioner: The investment remains; the issue is this administration that collects the funds.
The Shaykh : Yes
Another questioner: They may invest it in lawful ways, or they may invest it in unlawful ways.
The Shaykh : This possibility is entirely valid, but we want to study the reality.
Another questioner: The reality, Professor, is that the worker has no relationship with the investment.
The Shaykh : No, that is correct, but he has a relationship with the result. As we understood from you, ten plus ten, and within a few years, he accumulates, for example, a sum of one thousand dinars. If the one thousand dinars are given to him and their profit is one hundred dinars, yes.
Another questioner: I wish the situation were like that.
The Shaykh : I am trying to clarify the issue: he has no share in it, he has no share in it, that is correct. But when he learns that this money was invested through riba, it is not permissible for him to take what they call interest, if this is the case.
Another questioner: Our dear Professor, the situation is completely different now. The worker does not take five thousand; perhaps he does not even get three hundred. The amounts that accumulated to two thousand, perhaps his family receives ten thousand, and this is a continuous monthly salary, meaning it ends and disappears according to certain circumstances and conditions. Perhaps his family does not receive two hundred or three hundred.
The Shaykh : Why?
The questioner : There is a formula for setting a monthly salary; this is divided among the heirs, and each heir has a share. This share ends if he works...
The Shaykh : May Allah bless you, we need the picture so we can know the Islamic ruling in it.
The questioner : The investment is a separate and independent matter from the issue of the money and the deduction.
The Shaykh : This is correct, but if this money is invested in an unlawful way, will it have a result? The answer is no.
The questioner : This answer now concerns all state employees and society as a whole.
The Shaykh : There is no god but Allah.
The questioner : And all pension and social development institutions now keep their funds in banks and have accounts...
The Shaykh : Yes, no problem, but this does not define what is forbidden. May Allah bless you. The Muslim man at that time calculates what he saved. If this man was given good, ten plus ten, then whatever exceeds that, he does not make lawful, does not eat, and does not benefit from it. He has one of two ways, and in both ways, some scholars in the present age issue rulings: either he leaves this riba, or he takes it and spends it on public facilities. This is what I am accountable to Allah for. As for him eating it, that is not permissible for him.
The questioner : Who can... himself... this is a difficult situation.
The Shaykh : No, I do not think so, although this is not my specialty. Listen to me a little here. It is not permissible for this working man to take what was saved for him during his lifetime. Is it possible or not?
Another questioner: It is possible in special cases.
The Shaykh : No problem. What concerns me is one case, not cases as our Professor says. One case, we take it and make it an example to understand the Islamic ruling. This one case: when the man retrieves what was saved for him, as I said, ten plus ten, and he worked, for example, for so many years. You know what is being presented, right or not? Regarding ten plus ten, if it turns out to be more than the total that accumulated for him in these years of ten plus ten, he knows at that time that this came to him not through the ten plus ten, but rather they used this money that was saved for him in these few years in banks, for example. As I said, this is a picture where a person may know, or may not know. Allah does not burden a soul beyond its capacity.
The questioner : Let us assume a worker worked for thirty years.
The Shaykh : Yes.
The questioner : And this is a percentage of the salary. Once it became one hundred and ten, then one hundred and thirty, then one hundred and seventy. And this percentage over the number of thirty years is being deducted, and these percentages may vary from time to time...
The Shaykh : Professor, this is correct, but we can also take an example that determines how much was saved for him. We can take an example without these details. The purpose of all this talk is that a Muslim avoids eating a dirham of riba, because the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) says So if he knows that this addition is riba, he should avoid it. If he does not know, as you give some difficult examples, then Allah does not burden a soul beyond its capacity.
The questioner : There is a second way to simplify... how were these funds invested? Was it through a lawful way or another way...
The Shaykh : A question for Professor Muhammad: in some cases, this worker may be able to retrieve what was saved for him. He answered yes. You were with us in this picture.
The questioner : He only takes what was saved for him.
Another questioner: Meaning he takes more than the value of what was saved for him.
The Shaykh : He takes more from which party?
The questioner : Through a contract between him and them, the social insurance and insurance and insurances contract.
Another questioner: Social insurance. Two days ago, the discussion was in the company, just as he spoke.
The Shaykh : Professor Muhammad.
The questioner : It is a part of the salary that they save every month for each worker, plus double what they deducted on the company's account. This is for insurance for one year. The bank does not invest this. If he takes it all, it will be his full right. After the year, it will be invested in other investments. Some of them take their right from the company... there is something additional through certain investments. This is it.
The Shaykh : Here is the real crux of the question.
The questioner : Social insurance, my dear brother... if the man dies, if the employer dies, the salary comes to his family. This salary is a debt...
Another questioner: They will be investing other funds, either in riba-based investment or lawful investment... like car insurance, meaning the places of investment are numerous.
The questioner : The answer differs if the entity is public or private. Do public institutions that pay continuous salaries to employees upon retirement differ in ruling from private institutions?
The Shaykh : If the usage differs, it differs; otherwise, it does not.
The questioner : Public and private institutions.
The Shaykh : May Allah bless you. The issue of public institutions: all of them, like all public banks, operate with riba. Does this dealing make riba permissible? Of course not. The Muslim seeks the lawful... he distinguishes, he distinguishes between what and what.
The questioner : Between the institution being public and private.
The Shaykh : What is the point of distinction? If the same dealing and investment are one and the same, what is the difference then between public and private?
The questioner : ... Two systems: a fixed system and a classified system. The classified system: if he served in a place for twenty or thirty years until retirement, the state's calculation. The fixed system is the same system, but it differs in that it has no retirement; he takes from the salary social insurance. So the same service; these have the state's privileges... meaning his rights are complete in annual leave, in sick leave, everything except the annual retirement, the monthly retirement. He takes from the state the classified... social insurance. So this differs. The same complete rights: annual leave, sick leave, and weekly... civil service.
The Shaykh : In any case, what is the difference regarding the Islamic aspect?
The questioner : Islamic.
The Shaykh : Allow us to proceed. Please.
The Shaykh : We must know what social insurance is. Professor Muhammad is here; is it savings from the worker's salary, or is it investment? When they deduct a portion each month and profit from it through riba (usury or interest), if it is the former, there is no problem; it is permissible, and the deceased's family has the right to claim it. But if it is invested in riba and the money multiplies over the years, riba is not permissible in any way. What is your information on this?
Another questioner: The situation is... now a portion of the salary is deducted... ten percent, and an amount equal to or double this percentage is also taken from the employer, and this is considered a reserve to be given to the worker.
The Shaykh : Good, but
Another questioner: The investment remains; the issue is this administration that collects the funds.
The Shaykh : Yes
Another questioner: They may invest it in lawful ways, or they may invest it in unlawful ways.
The Shaykh : This possibility is entirely valid, but we want to study the reality.
Another questioner: The reality, Professor, is that the worker has no relationship with the investment.
The Shaykh : No, that is correct, but he has a relationship with the result. As we understood from you, ten plus ten, and within a few years, he accumulates, for example, a sum of one thousand dinars. If the one thousand dinars are given to him and their profit is one hundred dinars, yes.
Another questioner: I wish the situation were like that.
The Shaykh : I am trying to clarify the issue: he has no share in it, he has no share in it, that is correct. But when he learns that this money was invested through riba, it is not permissible for him to take what they call interest, if this is the case.
Another questioner: Our dear Professor, the situation is completely different now. The worker does not take five thousand; perhaps he does not even get three hundred. The amounts that accumulated to two thousand, perhaps his family receives ten thousand, and this is a continuous monthly salary, meaning it ends and disappears according to certain circumstances and conditions. Perhaps his family does not receive two hundred or three hundred.
The Shaykh : Why?
The questioner : There is a formula for setting a monthly salary; this is divided among the heirs, and each heir has a share. This share ends if he works...
The Shaykh : May Allah bless you, we need the picture so we can know the Islamic ruling in it.
The questioner : The investment is a separate and independent matter from the issue of the money and the deduction.
The Shaykh : This is correct, but if this money is invested in an unlawful way, will it have a result? The answer is no.
The questioner : This answer now concerns all state employees and society as a whole.
The Shaykh : There is no god but Allah.
The questioner : And all pension and social development institutions now keep their funds in banks and have accounts...
The Shaykh : Yes, no problem, but this does not define what is forbidden. May Allah bless you. The Muslim man at that time calculates what he saved. If this man was given good, ten plus ten, then whatever exceeds that, he does not make lawful, does not eat, and does not benefit from it. He has one of two ways, and in both ways, some scholars in the present age issue rulings: either he leaves this riba, or he takes it and spends it on public facilities. This is what I am accountable to Allah for. As for him eating it, that is not permissible for him.
The questioner : Who can... himself... this is a difficult situation.
The Shaykh : No, I do not think so, although this is not my specialty. Listen to me a little here. It is not permissible for this working man to take what was saved for him during his lifetime. Is it possible or not?
Another questioner: It is possible in special cases.
The Shaykh : No problem. What concerns me is one case, not cases as our Professor says. One case, we take it and make it an example to understand the Islamic ruling. This one case: when the man retrieves what was saved for him, as I said, ten plus ten, and he worked, for example, for so many years. You know what is being presented, right or not? Regarding ten plus ten, if it turns out to be more than the total that accumulated for him in these years of ten plus ten, he knows at that time that this came to him not through the ten plus ten, but rather they used this money that was saved for him in these few years in banks, for example. As I said, this is a picture where a person may know, or may not know. Allah does not burden a soul beyond its capacity.
The questioner : Let us assume a worker worked for thirty years.
The Shaykh : Yes.
The questioner : And this is a percentage of the salary. Once it became one hundred and ten, then one hundred and thirty, then one hundred and seventy. And this percentage over the number of thirty years is being deducted, and these percentages may vary from time to time...
The Shaykh : Professor, this is correct, but we can also take an example that determines how much was saved for him. We can take an example without these details. The purpose of all this talk is that a Muslim avoids eating a dirham of riba, because the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) says
One dirham of riba (usury or interest) is more severe in the sight of Allah than thirty-six acts of unlawful sexual intercourse.
درهم ربا أشد ع الله من ست و ثلاثين زنيةThe questioner : There is a second way to simplify... how were these funds invested? Was it through a lawful way or another way...
The Shaykh : A question for Professor Muhammad: in some cases, this worker may be able to retrieve what was saved for him. He answered yes. You were with us in this picture.
The questioner : He only takes what was saved for him.
Another questioner: Meaning he takes more than the value of what was saved for him.
The Shaykh : He takes more from which party?
The questioner : Through a contract between him and them, the social insurance and insurance and insurances contract.
Another questioner: Social insurance. Two days ago, the discussion was in the company, just as he spoke.
The Shaykh : Professor Muhammad.
The questioner : It is a part of the salary that they save every month for each worker, plus double what they deducted on the company's account. This is for insurance for one year. The bank does not invest this. If he takes it all, it will be his full right. After the year, it will be invested in other investments. Some of them take their right from the company... there is something additional through certain investments. This is it.
The Shaykh : Here is the real crux of the question.
The questioner : Social insurance, my dear brother... if the man dies, if the employer dies, the salary comes to his family. This salary is a debt...
Another questioner: They will be investing other funds, either in riba-based investment or lawful investment... like car insurance, meaning the places of investment are numerous.
The questioner : The answer differs if the entity is public or private. Do public institutions that pay continuous salaries to employees upon retirement differ in ruling from private institutions?
The Shaykh : If the usage differs, it differs; otherwise, it does not.
The questioner : Public and private institutions.
The Shaykh : May Allah bless you. The issue of public institutions: all of them, like all public banks, operate with riba. Does this dealing make riba permissible? Of course not. The Muslim seeks the lawful... he distinguishes, he distinguishes between what and what.
The questioner : Between the institution being public and private.
The Shaykh : What is the point of distinction? If the same dealing and investment are one and the same, what is the difference then between public and private?
The questioner : ... Two systems: a fixed system and a classified system. The classified system: if he served in a place for twenty or thirty years until retirement, the state's calculation. The fixed system is the same system, but it differs in that it has no retirement; he takes from the salary social insurance. So the same service; these have the state's privileges... meaning his rights are complete in annual leave, in sick leave, everything except the annual retirement, the monthly retirement. He takes from the state the classified... social insurance. So this differs. The same complete rights: annual leave, sick leave, and weekly... civil service.
The Shaykh : In any case, what is the difference regarding the Islamic aspect?
The questioner : Islamic.
The Shaykh : Allow us to proceed. Please.