A discussion that took place between Al-Albani and one of the Azhar scholars regarding the attribute of Allah’s (Mighty and Majestic) elevation, and the Azhari’s argument using the hadith of the Kerubim angels.

The Shaykh : A discussion took place on this issue with that Azhari scholar, who at the time was with the Shari'ah Society, known as the Subkiyyah or the Khatibiyah. I said to him: Is this universe limited or not? Is it not limited? He said: No, it is limited. I said to him: Is space a positive existence or a non-existence? He said: No, it is a positive matter, it is not a non-existence. We assume it is positive; meaning it has a reality, meaning it is in this universe.
And upon you be peace, and the mercy of Allah and His blessings. Welcome.
It is not, for example, like any imagination that a person imagines... each of us, yes, each of us... each of us can imagine a person who has... this is an imagination that has no... it has no existence. This is what is meant: is space a positive existence or a non-existence? He said: No, space is a positive existence and not a non-existence. I said: I cannot... but remember what we agreed upon: the universe is bounded, and space is a positive existence; are we in agreement on this? He said: Yes.

The questioner : ... .

The Shaykh : I said to him: Is the first [heaven] a creation? He said: Yes. And the second, third, fourth, and seventh, and what is above the seventh heaven? He said: The Throne. I said: And what is above the Throne? He said: The Kerubim. I said: What are these Kerubim? I know this, but I wanted to point it out from one side, and to alert the attendees... the Messenger is speaking, the scholars of Al-Azhar. I said: Who are these Kerubim? He said: These are angels. I said to him: Are these angels above the Throne? He said: Yes. I said: What is the evidence for that? Do you have a verse or a hadith from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him)? He said: Our sheikhs taught us this. I said: How wonderful... that the creed is not established even by an authentic hadith, it must be a mass-transmitted hadith, that is what they say. And we have a treatise that was recently printed, and perhaps you will look at it soon... but I... believe in it and profess it; so they do not establish a creed with an authentic hadith unless it is mass-transmitted; so how do you believe in the Kerubim and that they are above the Throne? No, the Kerubim are on the Throne, and you have neither a verse nor a hadith. I said: This is as we mentioned... we do not stop here; because this is not the main point of our discussion. The main point... and the hadith. I do not believe that there is anything of the created things above the Throne at all; because no verse or hadith has come to us, not even a single-narrator hadith. But in Syria... they say: "What does not come with you, come with it."
I cannot force you to believe with me now that there are Kerubim above the Throne; especially since... I am walking with you now, I assume that there are Kerubim above the creation of Allah (Mighty and Majestic); so is there another creation above the Kerubim? "The Shaykh's donkey stopped at the pass"!! He did not know... that the universe is created, so you must say, if you say, for example, as you said: above the Throne are the Kerubim; so what is above the Kerubim? ... there is something else, and in... because we agreed that the universe is limited, this statement is correct. We said to him: So whatever chain you make of the topic, you set a limit that this Throne is the end of the universe, or the Kerubim, or what is above the Kerubim; the universe ends; is that not so? He said: Yes. I said: Let us come to space, and we agreed that it is positive and not a non-existence. So after the universe is defined either by the Throne or by something else; what is above this created thing or the Throne, for example? Is there space? He said: No. I said to him: Glory be to Allah! So why do you accuse the Salafis who say that Allah is above all created things... and they assigned Him a place, and you believed with me that there is no space?!
The truth is that these scholars of Kalam imagine that by affirming... for Allah, we have confined Him to a place, and the truth is that there is no place. And what confirms this for us is a creed agreed upon by all Muslim sects: ... So when Allah was, was He in a place? He is now not in a place; because Allah is free from the needs of the worlds. So negligence from one point or one issue leads to another issue... until it reached the point of interpreting the verses that were revealed... absolute interpretation, but when they fell into such a sin, and they imagined that if it is said: Allah is in the sky, it means in the absolute elevation according to the correct interpretation, and in a place that we assigned, and they forgot or neglected that behind the creation there is no place...