A discussion that took place between Al-Albani and one of the Azhar scholars regarding the attribute of Allah’s elevation and the Azhar scholar’s argument using the hadith of the Kerubiyun.
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The Shaykh : There was a discussion about this issue with that Azhar scholar. I said to him, is this universe limited or not? Is it not limited? He said it is not limited. I said to him, is space a positive existence or a non-existence? He said it is a positive matter, it is not a non-existence. We assume it is a positive existence, meaning it has a reality, meaning it is in this universe.
And upon you be peace, and the mercy of Allah and His blessings...
It is not, for example, like any imagination you imagine... I said this is imagination. I said to him... it has no existence. So this... is space a positive existence or a non-existence? He said space is a positive existence and not a non-existence. I said I cannot... we have agreed on this, the universe is bounded and space is a positive existence. Did we agree on this? He said yes.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : I said to him, is the first planet a universe? He said yes, and the second, third, fourth, and seventh. And what is above the seventh heaven? He said the Throne. I said what is above the Throne? He said the Kerubiyun. I said what are these Kerubiyun? I know this, but I wanted... from one side and to alert the attendees... the Messenger is speaking with scholars of al-Azhar. I said who are these Kerubiyun? He said they are angels. I said and are these angels above the Throne? He said yes. I said what is the evidence for that? Do you have any verse or hadith from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him)?... He said this is how our shaykhs taught us. I said how strange... that the creed is not established even by an authentic hadith, it must be that the hadith is mutawatir, that is what they say. We looked into a treatise that was recently printed, and perhaps... soon... they do not establish a creed with an authentic hadith unless... it is mutawatir. So how do you believe in the Kerubiyun and that they are above the Throne?[Taha 20:5] No, the Kerubiyun are on the Throne, and you have no verse or hadith. I said this is what we mentioned... we do not stop here because this is not the main point of our speech. The main point... and the hadith. I do not believe that there is anything of the created things above the Throne at all, because no verse or hadith has come from Allah, even a hadith of ahad, but we have in the Shari'ah... they say...
I cannot force you to believe with me now that there are Kerubiyun above the Throne, especially since...
I am proceeding with you now, assuming that there are Kerubiyun above the creation of Allah the Exalted. So, is there another creation above the Kerubiyun? "The Shaykh's donkey stopped at the obstacle"... since the universe is created, you must say, if you said, as you did, that there are Kerubiyun above the Throne, then what is above the Kerubiyun?... there is something else and in... that the universe is limited... in the subject, you set a limit that this Throne is the end of the universe, or the Kerubiyun, or what is above the Kerubiyun, the universe ends, is that not so?... I said we come now to space, and we agreed that it is positive and not negative. So after the universe is defined... by the Throne, and if there is something else, what is above this created thing or the Throne, for example? This is what... now? He said no. I said to him, Glory be to Allah. So why... the Salafis who say that Allah is above all creation... and they assigned Him a place, and you believed with me that there is no place? The truth is that these scholars of kalam imagine establishing... for Allah, that we have confined Him to a place, and the truth is that there is no place. And the... creed agreed upon by all Muslim sects "Allah was and there was nothing with Him"... well, so when Allah... He is likewise now not in a place, because Allah is free from the worlds. So negligence from one point or one issue leads to another issue... until it reached the point of interpreting the verses that were revealed... absolute interpretation, but when they fell into such a sin and imagined... that Allah is in the sky, meaning in the absolute elevation according to the correct interpretation, and in... and they forgot or neglected that behind the creation there is no place... .
And upon you be peace, and the mercy of Allah and His blessings...
It is not, for example, like any imagination you imagine... I said this is imagination. I said to him... it has no existence. So this... is space a positive existence or a non-existence? He said space is a positive existence and not a non-existence. I said I cannot... we have agreed on this, the universe is bounded and space is a positive existence. Did we agree on this? He said yes.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : I said to him, is the first planet a universe? He said yes, and the second, third, fourth, and seventh. And what is above the seventh heaven? He said the Throne. I said what is above the Throne? He said the Kerubiyun. I said what are these Kerubiyun? I know this, but I wanted... from one side and to alert the attendees... the Messenger is speaking with scholars of al-Azhar. I said who are these Kerubiyun? He said they are angels. I said and are these angels above the Throne? He said yes. I said what is the evidence for that? Do you have any verse or hadith from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him)?... He said this is how our shaykhs taught us. I said how strange... that the creed is not established even by an authentic hadith, it must be that the hadith is mutawatir, that is what they say. We looked into a treatise that was recently printed, and perhaps... soon... they do not establish a creed with an authentic hadith unless... it is mutawatir. So how do you believe in the Kerubiyun and that they are above the Throne?
The Most Merciful [who is] above the Throne established.
الرحمن على العرش استوىI cannot force you to believe with me now that there are Kerubiyun above the Throne, especially since...
I am proceeding with you now, assuming that there are Kerubiyun above the creation of Allah the Exalted. So, is there another creation above the Kerubiyun? "The Shaykh's donkey stopped at the obstacle"... since the universe is created, you must say, if you said, as you did, that there are Kerubiyun above the Throne, then what is above the Kerubiyun?... there is something else and in... that the universe is limited... in the subject, you set a limit that this Throne is the end of the universe, or the Kerubiyun, or what is above the Kerubiyun, the universe ends, is that not so?... I said we come now to space, and we agreed that it is positive and not negative. So after the universe is defined... by the Throne, and if there is something else, what is above this created thing or the Throne, for example? This is what... now? He said no. I said to him, Glory be to Allah. So why... the Salafis who say that Allah is above all creation... and they assigned Him a place, and you believed with me that there is no place? The truth is that these scholars of kalam imagine establishing... for Allah, that we have confined Him to a place, and the truth is that there is no place. And the... creed agreed upon by all Muslim sects "Allah was and there was nothing with Him"... well, so when Allah... He is likewise now not in a place, because Allah is free from the worlds. So negligence from one point or one issue leads to another issue... until it reached the point of interpreting the verses that were revealed... absolute interpretation, but when they fell into such a sin and imagined... that Allah is in the sky, meaning in the absolute elevation according to the correct interpretation, and in... and they forgot or neglected that behind the creation there is no place... .