The account of an incident that occurred to the Shaykh with some of the Shaykhs of Al-Azhar in Mina during the Hajj season regarding the issue of the Exaltedness of Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He).

The Shaykh : I will conclude the topic with a discussion that took place between me and one of the scholars of Al-Azhar during one of the Hajj seasons, while I was in Mina, perhaps fifteen or twenty years ago. It was between Maghrib and 'Isha', I think. A man from Al-Azhar entered, wearing his turban—you know how the Egyptians wear their turbans. He greeted us and sat down to listen. He felt that my speech was like the speech of the Najdis—meaning the Wahhabis, in his opinion. Immediately, he raised the issue that these Wahhabis are those who ascribe a body to Allah. This is among the accusations they level against them: that they are those who ascribe a body to Allah. Why? Because they say: "Allah rose above the Throne." I said to him: Why do you believe that they are those who ascribe a body to Allah? Look at the negligence of the scholars of Al-Azhar. He said: Because they say: "Allah is above the Throne." I said: Glory be to Allah! Do they say this, or does Allah say this? Allah says: ; so is there any error for the Muslim to say what Allah (Mighty and Majestic) says? We entered into a discussion with him that was similar to this research, but I did not find from him any engagement with the texts of the Shari'ah. So I turned the discussion to a purely logical method. I said to him: Do you want to be with me for a while and answer me some questions? He said to me: Please go ahead. I said to him: Is space a real entity or a non-existent one? Meaning, like the phoenix, a name without a body, or does it have a reality and...? He said: No, it is a real entity. They know this because they study it in the science of theology. He said: A real entity, meaning not imaginary. I said to him: Good. Is this space limited as a created thing, or absolute with no limits? He said: No, it is limited. I said to him: I agree with you; so let us proceed now. What is above us? He said: The sky. I said to him: You are correct. And above this sky? He said: The second one. In short, what is above the seventh sky? He said: The Throne. I thought that was the end of the universe, that he would say to me, so I had planned in my mind. I said to him: Okay; what is above the Throne? I was surprised by his statement: "They are the Cherubim angels."

Another questioner : Cherubim.

The Shaykh : Cherubim. I said to him: What are these? I ignored it; I am a reader of this name, but it has no basis in the books of hadith. I said to him: What are these Cherubim? He said: Angels. I said to him: Angels on the Throne? He said: Yes. I said to him: Do you have a verse? He said: No. I said to him: Do you have a hadith? He said: No. I said to him: So where did you get this belief that above the Throne, which you say Allah is above, there are Cherubim angels, and you have neither a verse nor a hadith? How did you believe in this belief? He said: This is what our Shaykhs at Al-Azhar taught us. I said to him: How amazing the scholars of Al-Azhar are! They decide that it is not permissible to take a belief from an authentic hadith, and yet they teach you a belief without a fabricated hadith, not an authentic hadith, without any hadith at all that exists. But we do not stop here. Suppose that above the Throne there are angels named the Cherubim; what comes after that? He said: Nothing. I said: This is what I want from you. Meaning, is there space there? He said: No. I said: May Allah forgive you! Why do you accuse the Salafis, whom you call the Wahhabis, of making a place for Allah, when you are with us saying that there is no space behind the Throne? So Allah is not in a place, but rather the truth of the Great Allah is: .